I’d also like to know if the folks who are offended by door openers hold doors for others. Do you? Ever? What is your motivation?
This was a post to catsix, not you. But, to answer your question.
I don’t know, why WOULDN’T he open a door for a man also? My question is, how does a person having a door opened for them KNOW that the man opening the door wouldn’t open the door for a man? Do you have ESP?
Let me try again, more slowly. You approach a door. A strange man is there ahead of you, he opens the door for you. You either enter, or say “no thanks”
(which is going to then be a strange and awkward physical manuever, as he’s already holding the door). And you …what? Leave that door and go to another door, one not held by a supposed chauvinist? You walk around behind him, take the door handle from him and insist he let go and walk through the door?)
Oh, sorry my mind wandered, as someone else said, a sign of old age.
At any rate, so, you’re there, and the man is there. What amazing ESP powers do you possess that allow you to know that this man wouldn’t also open the door for a man, an older person, a child, and so on?
And why is this such a hard question for you and Catsix to wrap your brains around that you keep going back to the “well, if he wouldn’t open a door for a man, of COURSE he’s a chauvinist”.
Again, unless you’ve seen droves of men ignoring other men, and diving in front of females only to open the door, you do NOT know what this stranger’s thought is on the act of opening a door for someone.
Okay, as we’re going to do this in simple terms:
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Yes, I’ve seen many men holding doors open for women and I have not seen a single man, that I am aware of, holding open a door for an unladen, visibly able man. Men holding doors open for other men is not a phenomenon I am aware of, which is backed by anecdotal evidence within this thread of men saying that they hold doors open for women and were taught that this is good manners.
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I stand back and say “No, please, after you.” As he’d opened the door in much the same manner that he’d have done for himself, it not quite as awkward as you seem to imagine. Funny thing, imagination.
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I don’t believe that I’ve called anyone chauvinist. Someone may believe that they’re being perfectly polite, and I’d agree with them. However, their taught behaviour stems from an outdated chauvinist practice from yesteryear (slightly more contemporary than way-back-when).
That too complicated for you? Okay, how about this: Man holding door open = not sexist in itself. Door-holding-open behaviour = inherently sexist in terms of historical context. I cannot be 100% sure of each individual’s intent behind his/her behaviour, no, but I can take an educated guess.
- Yes, I do have ESP but that’s entirely another thread.
I observe men holding the door for other men all the time. I do it, other men do it for me. It really is just a courtesy. I gotta say that rarely a day goes by when it doesn’t happen for me. If I am at a restaurant and someone else is at the door first, it is quite common for him or her to hold the door open for me. I smile and say thanks. If I’m there first I hold the door for others - male or female. Heck, the only place I don’t see it is a place where the doors open automatically.
This is my experience also.
Me too. But I didn’t volunteer this fact earlier because I thought I might be challenged to offer video evidence of this behavior.
The only time I have to open a door myself is if I am in rush hour foot traffic or nearest to the door. The rest of the time I am either trading places with the designated door holder or rushing through with a polite “thank you”.
There has also been anecdotal evidence within this thread of men holding doors open for men, and others saying that they have in fact observed this.
Well, when I open the door for myself, I stand in front of it and then go through. If I am in front of it, obviously another person isn’t going to be able to pass until I do. When I hold a door open for someone, I hold it open and step to the side, and just slightly to the back of it so as to get out of their way.
Maybe door design is different where you come from.
When I said "…you keep going back to the “of course he’s chauvinist…” it was merely shorthand (for I’m a dreadful typist) for the whole “it’s an old-fashioned notion that is insulting and implies women can’t do for themselves blah blah blah” that is the bulk of you and cat’s arguments.
As at least two posters have already mentioned, meanings of words and gestures can and do change over time. The historical origins of this behaviour is not somehow “proof” that door holding behaviour is sexist.
Well then, in your case you just know which ones are insulting you since you can read their minds to find out.
Now, to completely throw this thread for a wee loop. Let’s say that a certain group of men do believe that it is polite to behave in extra considerate ways toward women.
What is so wrong with a man saying (whether subconsciously or not) “hey, a woman, I’d like to treat her in a small, but kind way since she is a woman”?
And (if it doesn’t confuse some folks too much) a second question to consider. How is this in any way different from behaving kindly and considerately toward elderly people, or children?
Why is it so insulting to realize and act upon mere kindness when you see someone who may need it, or more importantly, APPRECIATE it?
I don’t think it’s insulting for someone to hold a door open for me if I need it, it’s that I don’t like to be thought of as someone needing that assistance.
Anyway, I do consider myself corrected - obviously if the door-holding-open thing is entirely equal opportunities then I have absolutely no right at all to get my knickers in a knot. A straw poll in my house (Dad, hubby and baby brother at the moment) all contend in a tongue in cheek manner that a British man would only hold open a door for another man if the man holding the door wished to either (yes, these are direct quotes) “look at the other man’s bum for bumming purposes” or is trying to steal the other man’s wallet. So maybe it really is a cultural thing and British men are still just as unreconstructed as ever. Or maybe it’s just the men I know?? Either way, I’m obviously arguing from a completely different point of view so will butt out!
I’ve been staying out of this, having no dog in this fight, but I have to say that this is simply inexcusable. The “don’t be a jerk” rule holds even in the Pit.
I dunno, I thought your POV was interesting, and calmly argued.
I guess I still don’t get why some “holdees” think that holders are doing it because they believe that the holdee “needs assistance” or isn’t capable or some such.
Again, even with the men who are specifically doing it because they believe it is a polite thing to do for women, why does that then translate to “polite because they can’t open the door themselves”?
Guin has been kind to me on this board. She appears to me to be a thoughtful and eloquent poster. She has done nothing to deserve such a diatribe. As Eve said, there is no defense for jerkiness. Shut the fuck up, you useless git. Consider how much courage it takes to be so cruel to someone who exists for you only as bits of data on a computer, and be ashamed.
Bless you,
Seriously. What any of this diatribe against Guin has to do with what we are even talking about, I have no idea. It was pointless and mean for no reason. What a jerk.
This is why I meant to butt out - I truly believed the following:
- men do not hold doors open for me because they’re sexist, but because they’re trying to do a nice thing, hence me smiling at them.
- however, the basis of that behaviour is from year dot, when men thought ladies were delicate creatures in need of having doors open for them.
- So the men are doing something nice in their eyes, but in my eyes, it’s just a leftover from an incorrect premise that women have been fighting to correct for 100 years plus.
However, this thread has shown me that men open doors for each other all the time, so my premise was incorrect. I was arguing my point from an inaccurate stance.
Jebus, I just admitted I was wrong in a public forum. Mark that one down for prosperity cuz it ain’t gonna happen again 
Annnnyway, I fully admit I’m a bit of a huge feminazi. I’m the main breadwinner by almost 20k in our house and I LOVE IT (and hubby loves being a ‘kept man’!). I still do see sexist behaviour around me: my younger-than-me male boss called a fellow female manager of his along with me his ‘girls’ until I called him ‘sonny jim’ and ‘young feller me lad’ all through a public meeting once. One of the district managers who funds my service called me ‘poppet’ on Wednesday, which I know he meant as a sign of our close, informal working relationship. So I didn’t jump down his throat, but I’ve since called him ‘bunnypoopoo’ for the rest of the week. I still maintain that many men are holding doors open for me because I’m a woman, and I still don’t like that. But I certainly won’t be assuming that they’re all doing that from now on, regardless to my ESP.
Maybe Crafter_Man thinks Guin is a cat. He has stated on many occasions how much he gets off on being cruel to cats. Perhaps he is confused, or perhaps his cruelties are beginning to leak into one another.
Are you my ex-husband? He was the only one I know that couldn’t remember what day of the week it was but could keep a running list in his head of all my supposed flaws.
I guess I won’t be signing up for the NJ Dopefest. Doesn’t pay to let people know too much about you. 
Kidding! I don’t want to be thrown out on my first day!
I see it as a courtesy, nothing more really. Men open doors for women, women for men, women for women, etc. etc.
I did offer to help an older men put his grocery bags in his car the other day, and not only did he refuse, he got a little angry that I offerend. It was about 100 degrees, and I remembered my father shopping and what a difficult time he had towards the end, and I hope some kind person would have offered him a little help if he needed it. I’m sure I’d offer again if I saw someone in a similiar situation.
Sometimes a small kindness is all someone has in an otherwise crappy day.
Hey, Caridwen, you are wanted over here.
Thanks!
I find it quite … interesting that such an aggressively offensive jerk is defending catsix so ferociously. One might come to believe he’s agitating for a pot of shit to stir. Things must be awfully dull in his usual subspan habitat.
Crafter_Man has stated numerous times that he shoots such stray cats as wander his property. When I lived in a rural area, I did the same thing. So did my neighbors. The toll strays and ferals take on native songbirds, rabbits, and other small animals pushes such an action into the realm of public service.
The fact that they are filthy, raddled with parasites and disease, and that its just plain fun only makes it better.