Sexism and

I’d like to start off by saying this is my first post on this forum. I stumbled upon this site a couple days ago and have had fun reading the messages in this section. I have a small debate of my own that I often have with people, and for which I am often ridiculed. I would like to see some opposing opinions other than those from the usual people with which I carry on this debate.

I believe that allowing women to pass through doors before men is sexist. That is usually the main thing that is focused on when I argue, but it applies to other areas. Not hitting women is the same thing (I don’t condone violence, but if I am angry enough to throw a punch, which doesn’t happen often, I don’t discriminate between the sexes,) along with refusing to swear in the presence of women. All of these things are definitely courteous, and none of the actions alone are really wrong, but doing any of them solely because someone is a woman is sexist. This so called “gentlemanly” behavior is often expected. I find that people usually don’t call things discrimination when they seemingly don’t hurt anyone. I don’t know enough about it to argue it, but I see the same thing with racism and affirmative action.
That’s about it. Anyone agree or disagree? Don’t really care?

Welcome to the forum.

I wouldn’t call the action that you’re describing as sexist. Holding the door for someone is a courtesy, and that alone. Hell, I’m a woman, and I hold the door for a man if he is following me. It’s simply a matter for holding the door for the next person, regardless of sex.

Aside from the fact that hitting ANYONE is inapropriate behavior just because they made you angry, hitting women is generally frowned upon because, after all, women are somewhat physically smaller, and oftentimes not as strong as a man. Hitting a woman who is your domestic partner is an act of dominance. You are then using your strength to intimidate and bend another person to your will, which is just asshole-behavior no matter how you slice it. Now, if a woman pops you one right on the nose, hitting her back is not as “bad” as domestic abuse, because she, as the instigator of violence, cannot hide behind the fact that she is a female to avoid the consequences.

If someone asks you not to use foul language in their presence, regardless of sex, you should respect it. It’s just polite. Personally, I do not swear in the presence of others unless we are friends and I know my language will not offend. It’s simply not polite to use foul language when there’s the possibility that you may offend the other party.

Quaint, maybe. Sexist, no. The word “sexist” implies negative behavior. None of these actions described are negative or discriminatory in a bad way.

I don’t think he’s talking about holding the door for the person behind you. I think he’s talking about that thing where a man races to get to the door before me so he can open it for me ( which he would never do for another man).I don’t think it’s sexist, though.

This one really annoys me. It annoys me not because I want people to swear, but what happens is that I’ll be with a group of men, someone will slip and use “offensive” language, and there’s a big show of apologizing to me (who usually has the one of the foulest mouths in the group). It’s annoying because I feel I’m being singled out from the rest of the group,and because it seems the rest of them don’t feel they can act naturally around me. That’s an entirely different issue than not swearing around someone who’ll be offended.

Thank you. :slight_smile:

Exactly, but only if it is regardless of sex.

I think you misunderstood me, which is most likely my fault because I am usually not that clear. I have only been angry enough to throw a punch twice in my life. One of them was at a female, and she did throw the first punch. We were both hurt about the same, yet I was the one ridiculed by others afterwards.

Honestly, I didn’t really think this part through before I posted it. I was just trying to fill my claim of there being “other areas” in which this applies.

This is mainly where I disagree with you. “Sexist” does imply negativity, but it isn’t, by definition, negative. These things aren’t really conventionally negative, but they might be considered negative in that the sexes aren’t being treated equally.
You used the phrase “regardless of sex” a few times. I completely agree with you. I have nothing against opening doors for women and allowing them to pass before me. I think it is a great idea to refrain from using foul language in the presence of women. The most important of these is refraining from using violence against women. Unfortunately, many don’t spread these things across the sexes. The cliche phrases should be “People first.” instead of “Ladies first.” “Don’t hit people.” instead of “Don’t hit girls.” In cases when a man would open a door for a woman, he wouldn’t do it for a man. In some cases when a man would refrain from striking a woman, he would strike a man. That is sexist. Not being courteous to other men is negative. I wasn’t so much speaking out against opening doors and refraining from violence as I was against not opening doors and resorting to violence.
Again, I apologize for not being clear. I hope I make sense this time around.

HoldenCaulfield
Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 1

Really? I never would have guessed. Sorry, couldn’t resist. BTW, often putting something in quotes in a thread’s title makes it diappear. Did this happen to the title of this thread?

As for your question: the things you cite definitely imly that women have a different role in society, and as such are sexist. As Lissa said, the “don’t hit a woman” rule is because women are thought of as weak creatures, which is a somewhat condescending attitude.

It is most definitly NOT true that a stereotype or attitude has to be negitive to be sexist or harmful. Some examples:

Women are more caring than men.

Women are better at relationahips than men.

Women are more in touch with thier emotions than men.

Women are better with children than men.

Women are more intuitive than men.

This is easier to see when it comes to other types of sterotypes:

Gay men are fantastic dressers.

Blacks are better dancers than whites.

Asians aer intelligent.

Etc, etc. The fact is, an individual’s gender can not be used to determine whether or not a person is caring, in touch wiht thier feelings, good at relationships, whatever. Furthermore, a lot of “positive” sterotypes have sort of hidden dicotmy inside of them. SOmeone says “Women are more intuitive” and the obvious corrolary is “men are more intelligent”. That sort of thing. Since the 19th century, the idea that having a sort of moral/spiritual/domestic authority exempts women from having logical/civic/public authority has been an important paradigm.

I hold doors for people behind me; I run ahead any open doors for people with thier arms full. I dont mind reciving these services when I feel like my gender isnt the determining factor. But I do not like haivng the car door unlocked and opened for me, I do not like men buying me drinks (I turn them down, or buy the next round) I do not like being watched out for or protected any more than one would do for a man. Even when these things are offered with the best of intentions (and I know that they often are) they make me feel like I am being pushed into the gender niche “girl” and I will be expected to fufill all of the above positive sterotypes (not to mention the negitive ones) and it makes me uncomfortable.

Furthermore, I do not like being put in the posisition where I am forced to be grateful about something that I could have done myself. Someone running ahead to open a door for me when I have both hands free dosent make my day one whit easier–in fact, it often means I have to slow down, break my stride. But I have to act happy and grateful because to do otherwise would be being a bitch. I sort of have to act like somehow opening that door would have been more diffucult for me than it would have been for him.

Hmm.

I open doors for women. Why? Because women seem to like it. I don’t open doors for men, because it tends to make them uncomfortable. Why is that? I don’t know. Should I change it? I’m no social reformer. If I found myself in a society where women did not enjoy having men open doors for them, then I wouldn’t. But I’m not. When I open doors for women, it makes women happy. When I make women happy, I make myself happy. Why should I stop doing what I do if everybody’s happy?

I can’t help it! :wink:

Esprix

There is no difinitive view on the subject of whether or not the term “sexism” is or is not by nature negative.

This may be a stretch, but the term “broad” has polar opposites in connotation when used in different circumstances.

In the sentence “I have broadened my horizons,” broad has a positive meaning. Other times, the word is a derrogatory term used for a woman, certainly with negative connotations.

My point is that words never have EXACTLY the same meaning twice.

BTW: I hold doors open for women all of the time. It’s not sexist, in my opinion, it’s just courteous.

Eh. I think this kind of thing falls well below the trivial line for me. It’s a given that we will never be completely gender blind in all we do. Let’s face it, we’re built to notice the difference, and we all enjoy that there are differences to be noticed. So when the issue is common customs and courtesies, the way I see it is that noone is entitled to special treatment due to their gender, neither should anyone be unduly outraged when it is offered with honest intent.

Starting to get a little sick of all this “ism” B__S__. * sexism; racism etc*

I believe the only reason Sexism exists is because narrow minded people make it exist! If people didn’t kep complaining about it, there really would be no problem.

I’m a male, I have just as many, if not more female friends than male, and I don’t treat them any different to my male friends. Of course there will always be the usual differences, but hey…live with it. there is nothing we can do to change it…and we’re all equal!

        ***GET OVER IT ***

OK, so whats your (or anyone else’s) opinion on the historical practice of saving women first in natural disasters (e.g. the Titanic)? (I’m unsure if this rule is still followed.)

I ride the bus every day to and from work. Often, our bus is full, to the point where a couple people have to stand. If I see a woman standing, I almost always (90%+) stand up and offer her my seat. Usually I try to offer it to an older lady (no disrespect intended).

Question - is this sexist? I am one of the few people who does this and I get a full range of reactions from a delighted thank you to sullen acceptance. I guess it’s n a full range because no one has turned me down. On a one hour bus ride, I don’t expect them to.

noone is entitled to special treatment due to their gender, neither should anyone be unduly outraged when it is offered with honest intent.

What Ptahlis said. I promise not to be offended by a man who opens a door for me so long as he’s not offended if I open the door for him. (Double doors offer a great opportunity for returning the favor. If I walk through first, then I’m in a good position to hold the second door.) I don’t do it as a political point, I do it because it’s polite. I think it’s silly for men to cuss in my presence and then apologizing for their language to ME when they’re not apologizing to the other men present. If I’m in a group of peers, it’s not appropriate to cuss in front of me then it’s not appropriate to cuss in front of someone else. I also think it’s damned silly for a woman to stand in front of a door waiting for it to be opened for her, unless she has her hands full. People-wide courtesy is all I ask for, but I make it a rule not to be offended by kindly meant courtesies.

IzzyR, my take would be that the more able-bodied should save those less able to help themselves. This would put me on the list of people who are doing the saving, even though I’m female, because I’m strong and able-bodied. I wouldn’t argue with someone who insisted that I go first, but I would be trying to save those whom I thought needed help. (And I might be mistaken, too.)

Squooshed, if you wouldn’t stand for a man who looked like he’d like to sit down, then yes, it’s sexist–but possibly to the guys. It’s not bad (possibly misguided in that you’re assuming that you’re more capable of standing that the woman is), but it’s kind of a rotten thing for the guy who may have had knee surgery last week and be in some pain, isn’t it? If you offered me your seat, I might take it, if you looked like you could stand, or I’d offer to trade off if I wasn’t the one who’d had knee surgery. But if you were on crutches then I wouldn’t take it and would think you had an over-developed sense of courtesy.

Soup, yeah, that was a real stretch. :slight_smile: Those two uses of “broad” aren’t even really heteronyms, since they both refer to the “wide” aspect of the word. In this case, it’s more a matter of whether one believes that sex-based differentiation is always sexism–and is always negative (two different questions).

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IzzyR *
**

I’m not sure if they still do this or not either. From a purely practical standpoint, you can pack more women and kids into a lifeboat generally than men, but we all know that “Women and children first” was never a policy of practicality, but “chivalry.” Put the supposedly weakest in the least amount of danger and let the big, strong men take their chances.

For me, this would come under the heading: “No one is entitled to special treatment because of their gender.”

Well, I’ve found that there is a much bigger problem than the door opening thing. Actually two:

  1. Why is it that I can be carrying twenty packages and walking straight down the sidewalk, and if a woman crosses the street and starts to walk towards me on a collision path, I have to jump out of the way? If you pay attention and live in a busy city, you’ll probably find that this happens all the time. I mean, I’m a decently big guy, and if I wanted I could walk right through the five foot woman headed towards me, whereas she’d just bounce off. Why do women automaticlly think that I’m going to move? I’ve experimented and found that if I don’t move, often the woman will come right up to me to the point where we both have to stop, and sometimes she will move out of the way at the last second as it becomes clear I’m not moving. I’m talking about a wide sidewalk with plenty of room where I was walking first. It’s just weird.

As a disclaimer, I do get out of the way, I just don’t understand why many women seem to think they never have to.

  1. Another troubling thing is when I am waiting to get off an elevator (or a subway, or something similar). I can be right in front, with my nose inches from the door, but many times some woman steps in front of me to leave first, and I have to step out of the way for her. If you don’t immediately move, sometimes they will give you a nudge. If you get off first, sometimes they will give you a nasty look. What’s the deal with this?

Now don’t get all excited. I don’t really care that much about these things; I mean it doesn’t keep me up at nights. But I do hope this sort of behaviour is frowned upon and not allowed because of some out-dated notion of chivalry. I like to do nice things for my fellow men and women, but not when I’m forced to.

PeeQueue

Au contraire, folks.

First, a woman is entitled to precisely equal treatment as a man – no more and no less. Neither paternalistic decisions about what she may or may not do nor special consideration for sexist reasons. She may be privileged to have courtesies and chivalric treatment shown her. This is something offered by men, both as a social “lubricant” (etiquette is a means of greasing the squeaky joints in interpersonal relationships) or as a mild form of courtship.

However, there is a quite practical survivalist reason for women and children first – racial survival. Granted that in an overpopulated world this does not obtain, for most of human history, when genetic and cultural traits were being evolved, it did. And the logic is quite simple: for a man, a half hour of pleasurable effort will suffice to engender a child; for a woman, it’s nine months of ongoing effort. Then the child must be raised from helpless infancy to a point where it can be a contributing member of the society into which it is born – and this too has devolved largely on women historically. Not to minimize the importance of a father to functional human psychological growth, but one parent, normally the one giving birth, must be present or someone in loco parentis function in the same means, for that child to survive its first few years.

As a mental exercise, suppose eleven people in a spaceship crash on an uninhabited planet far from anything else. Hope of rescue is effetively nil. By sheer luck, they have all the materials and skills they need to survive and the planet is nor merely hospitable but absolutely welcoming to human life. In addition, neither scruples nor homosexual orientation is present in any of them to prevent sexual reproduction, all are fertile and philoprogenitive (want children), and none of them are possessively jealous. The object is to be fruitful, multiply, and subdue the planet.

Okay, we have one woman and ten men. Results: twenty children at maximum in the second generation, and that only if she starts young and remains constantly pregnant insofar as possible.

Now, one man and ten women. Results: nearly a hundred children in the second generation without enormous strain on the women. (This assumes each averaging ten children, high for today’s society, but not unreasonable over a 25 year span in this pseudo-ideal situation.)

We recognize that in each case there is a strain on the gene pool and that the second generation will all be half-siblings, but ignore these problems for the nonce.

Extreme example, but the point is clear: for the future survival of a species equipped like ours is, protection of the child-bearing sex, even at the expense of a substantial portion of the child-begetting sex, is a survival trait.

I find that whole “I won’t hit a girl” thing irritating & patronizing. I’m not talking about domestic violence here (& I am a DV survivor, so I know whereof I speak), but like, when you’re disagreeing with a friend about something like, say, football, & he says something moronic or blatantly wrong, so you punch him in the arm. Then he’s all like “I can’t hit you back cuz I don’t hit girls!” This has happened to me & I think it’s sexist & dumb. Treating me different because I’m a girl is sexist.

Or maybe y’all are just afraid that we’ll give you the pounding that you so richly deserve…heh heh.

& I do not regard door holding as necessary or desirable, especially when you’ve got those entrance arrangements where there’s a set of doors & then a little vestibule, then another set of doors. Although it can be comical to watch would-be chivalrous knights scrambling to get to the second set of doors before I do, even though I have a head start because they’re still holding the first set of doors, I usually opt to open the second set of doors myself, then hold it for the guy.

& this is getting long, but I have to say that I HATE “CHIVALRY”!! A guy who thinks he’s chivalrous is going to expect me to be a “lady”, & I feel as though that means I shouldn’t curse, burp, use the phrase “take a leak”, or discuss the ultimate supremacy of the '06 Cubs.

Well, I think it is good policy not to hit girls, even in jest (unless you go real easy with her and know her well). Some girls take it as a challenge, and hit you back harder. If you hit her back harder, it can escalate to the point where you have to do something to stop it that gets her mad or hurt and possibly embarrassed, or you have to let her get the last shot, in which case you should have just done that in the first place.

By the same token, girls shouldn’t go around hitting guys either.

As a matter of fact, I think it’s kind of silly when guys do it, but at least there seems to be a higher percentage of guys who’ve developed some sort of “hitting etiquette”.

PeeQueue

[/quote]
Why is it that I can be carrying twenty packages and walking straight down the sidewalk, and if a woman crosses the street and starts to walk towards me on a collision path, I have to jump out of the way? If you pay attention and live in a busy city, you’ll probably find that this happens all the time . . . . . Another troubling thing is when I am waiting to get off an elevator (or a subway, or something similar). I can be right in front, with my nose inches from the door, but many times some woman steps in front of me to leave first, and I have to step out of the way for her. If you don’t immediately move, sometimes they will give you a nudge. If you get off first, sometimes they will give you a nasty look. What’s the deal with this?
[/quote]

It’s not the fact that these people are women, it’s just that they’re rude people. I was never taught to EXPECT men to step out of my way, or to allow me to pass first, only to thank the person if they do. I don’t think any woman is taught to expect this sort of treatment.

I just smile and say “thank you” to a man who opens the door for me, or steps out of my way, but I also do the same thing for them. It’s just human courtesy. On a side note, I have had men actually SHOVE me aside to pass through an elevator door before me. Once, while delivering Meals On Wheels, I had a man knock me down to enter an elevator before me. The tray full of meals fell from my hands and splattered on the floor. The man laughed, and pushed the “close door” button. A lesson in common courtesy would have done him no harm, I assure you.