Are we not men?

I read an editorial that said that due to feminism, men have ceased to be, or understand the concept, of being a gentleman. That is, they no longer respect the traditional idea that women should be treated with a standard different than men. I can hear that backlash now.
So, you know? 'Splain it to me.

There’s a lot of traditional ideas I don’t respect. Behaving differently towards women than towards men is one of them. Polite behaviour should be irrespective of gender - and any notion of gentility beyond that (actually believing that women should have held doors open, but men should not) is just plain insulting.

It is easy to be oh so gracious when one is in a position of power.

With women well on the road to equality there is no need for artificial deferance, and to side with Mattk why should people be grateful of a symbol of past times ?

I consider myself to be a feminazi male, so I can totally understand any sort of disappreciation for actions such as pulling your chair out for you, etc. However, I will typically do these things unless told not to. Respecting women also includes respecting the fact that they may not hold the same views as I do about these things, and/or that they may not care if they’re receiving unequal treatment. Women don’t always get pissed at me when I hit on them, and that is certainly treatment I don’t often bestow upon men.

Something I do wish didn’t confuse EVERY guy, though, is this. I always open the door for the people around me, whether they be male or female. Many men get extremely confused at this. I often look like one of those guys at an airfield runway with the lit rods trying to wave his white ass through the door before he gets it.

  • Rog

We are Devo.

Damn you, Hastur! Beat me to it.

Okay, I’m going to go out on a limb here, but let’s face it, I’m a traditionalist. I believe in treating a lady like a lady. Holding a door open for them or pulling out their chair is in no way, to my mind, any sign of deference to them as a “weaker sex.” I don’t consider it insulting at all, neither do any of the ladies that I know personally. It just means that I give them the respect they deserve as ladies. Equality doesn’t mean that we necessarily treat each other the same. If anything we rejoice in our differences.

Euty, stop trying to pick up girls in the Pit!

So, um, anyways. . . Are you ever gonna, like, you know, make it to one of the NY Dopefests? Not 'cause I wanna meetcha or anything. . .

Hear hear!

Thank God there are other Gentlemen out there. I have to fully agree with Euty. And to be honest, I’d do the same for guys too.

Being a Gentleman is a dying art.

As someone who believes in full equality between the sexes, I don’t see the reason why I should open doors for women, when they don’t open them for me.

Tradition? Well, it’s kind of traditional that women get paid less than men. Should we continue that tradition too?

And don’t get me started about the damn toilet seats.

I didn’t think that opening doors for people was a man/woman thing. I open doors for people, often someone opens a door for me. I consider it polite, and I always remember to say thank you when someone holds the door for me, and appreciate a thank you when I do it for someone else.

You mean I’m the only woman who opens doors for men? I usually don’t check for gender when I’m being polite.

I also don’t see so much of this courtly behavior. Do guys really pull out your chair for you and hold out your coat and things like that? If it happens, then that’s sorta nice, but I can’t see that women expect guys to do it.

First of all, why is this in the Pit?

Now then. Euty wrote:

See, personally, I think I deserve respect as a human being, not as a “lady” (a word that makes my skin crawl, BTW). Why exactly do you think women deserve a special level of respect, Euty?

I can understand that there are situations when men and women should be treated differently, but pulling out a chair certainly isn’t one of them. I wouldn’t actually get offended if a man did this, I just think it’s kind of stupid.

(And Revtim, I never understood the toilet seat issue either.)

Ahem. The point of being a gentleman, OP assumptions notwithstanding, is to be gracious to everyone, not just ladies. A gentleman is not some Jeckyl-and-Hyde ripoff, one moment a dandy fop pouring tea for some damsel-in-distress, and transforming the next into a brutish linebacker shoving other men out of the way.

A gentleman is respectful of his elders, kind to children, and suffers fools politely, albeit with the occasional pained look. The degradation of polite society, of which the apparent dearth of gentlemen these days is one sad element, cannot correctly be laid at the doorstep of feminism.

And I’ll give 5:1 odds that Miss Manners agrees with me.

My problem with the whole chivilry thing is that for it to exisit women have to be trained to expect it: to stop three feet in fromt of a door to let the man catch up, pass her, and open the door. To stop three feet from the table and wait while he pulls out the chair. To accept flowers gracefuly and never even consider giving anything themselves. To be a princess, basically, and I hate princesses.

In a nutshell, you can’t expect and accept gracefully all these little luxuries if you don’t really buy into the idea that you deserve them just because of your gender. And no one does.

Now, people obviously deserve to be treaated well for being people–I hold doors and have doors held for me, I do my best to always be polite and I expect people to be polite to me. But I don’t expect them to do anything for me they wouldn’t do for my brother or my husband, and when they do it makes me uncomfortable. For one thing, I feel like I am allowing my brother and my husband to be snubbed.

D-E-V-O !

A Few Notes On Feminism

nineteen-eighties college dinner party
me an’ she and her lesbian room-mates
the conversation got all arty-farty
i stood up and washed the bowls and the plates
('cause i’m a nice guy?)

no dessert 'cause they were marching that night
dem feminists are gonna take back the might
i got your back (it would have made me proud)
but i’m not invited: men are not allowed
('cause i’m a bad guy?)

if my gender is a problem we can hook up later
she coyly states: “that might be nice”
room-mates suggestion: “why don’t we all meet at Slater’s?”
(‘cause it’s ladies’ night and they can drink for half price)

and the student body president was there
(her daddy runs a pharmaceutical firm)
then the rich kids with their punky purple hair
made me feel like a fish, made me feel like a worm
('cause i’m a straight guy?)

big surprise, she got completely soused
now she acts the incorrigible flirt
she fumbles with the buttons on her blouse
i walk out with my emancipated shirt
(i’m not that straight!)

I appreciate polite behavior. In other words, if a man holds a door open for me, I don’t glare at him like he’s some sort of knuckle-dragging throwback. I smile politely and say “thank you,” especially when I’m dragging a cart full of groceries and my two kids. Boy, is someone holding a door open for me ever appreciated then! Just a few weeks ago, I was walking in to a gas station, and there was a man on the other side of the door. He pulled it open for me, and I said “thank you, sir!” He smiled…and tipped his hat. Now that was impressive, especially considering that a) he was a younger man–didn’t look any older than me (mid-thirties) and b) he was dressed in mechanic’s clothing and wearing a ball cap.

But I practice the same sort of behavior, just because it’s polite. People appreciate politeness, regardless of the gender of the person who’s giving it. I don’t discriminate, either–I’ll hold a door open for whoever happens to be close.

So whatever happened to jut plain old polite, anyway? I’m not seeing a whole lot of it around anymore. :confused:

That’s 'cause we EVIL Canadians have stockpiled it and are trying to drive the price up. Supply and demand!


I am in TOTAL agreement with the faction that simply feels it’s good manners. Gender non-specific. There are days when I feel like a fucking doorman, as I’m on the way in to dinner at a restaurant. Why? Because NOBODY ELSE has a sense of social graces, apparently. One tends to hold the door for one’s familiars, and anyone else who might be caught unawares and catch the door edge in the incisors.

So… why won’t someone else step in and relieve me? Shit. I get take-out whilst my friends get hot entrees? :smiley: Okay, you get the point.

It’s a double standard for me, just in a different way. I call women M’am as a matter of course. Saying, " Hey, Lady, thanks for the butane, Nachos and condoms" just doesn’t feel right to me. Age is not an issue, I frequently call teenage girls M’am. ( and, I’m a Yankee ). However, call me “sir” and I’m VERY unhappy.

Weird, huh?

Fuck it. I’m weird. I’m strange. I’m disjointed and dysfunctional. I still go to bed each night praying that I’ll awaken to find that I’ve been named Geobabe’s personal valet :stuck_out_tongue:


Oh, right on target,

Persephone and Punoqllads!

I am personally appalled when I hear of women taking men to task for the simple gesture of offering to open an door or to help carry something heavy. I think that is taking the whole “feminism” thing way too far. It cuts into the realm of simply being kind and thoughtful to another human being. And considering what I’ve seen of our society lately, being kind and considerate of other people in in WAY short supply lately. Personally, I’d like to see men do the same sorts of considerate things when it comes to each other, but as I am a woman, I’ll leave that to them to work out amoung each other, as to what is comfortable and expected and what is not.

This is going beyond the OP, but if we’re going to talk about feminism, or the older term, “women’s lib,” permit me the digression:

Please let’s remember that “women’s lib” was really a lot of “men’s lib” too, as my very dear 87-year old friend reminds me. It relieved men, for good or ill, of the responsibility of caring for women for the entirety of women’s lives. While I do believe in the very long run this will be good for women, I am not so sure about how good it is for their children, until women can be assured of the same place and earnings in the working world that men have enjoyed while they were the sole means of support for families, and so many families split up these days. There are many men out there who simply don’t make enough money to adequately support two households even under the best of intentions, and many others who would rather not take the responsibility of doing so even if they can.

So, to get back to the OP, the whole original idea of feminism (at least in my mind) really wasn’t intended to address the simple courtesy of having a door opened for you, it was intended to allow or “free” women to make more choices about how they could live their lives. There were some obviously unintended consequences of that crusade, like women left with inadequate skills to properly care for their offspring and no requirement of alimony from their exes. After all the figurative heavy lifting women are expected to do these days, for typically less cash, well, yeah, it’s nice to have someone offer to open a door, and anyone who doesn’t appreciate it should probably be slapped.

Though I admit myself, having been raised in a very traditional family, I still find it weird when I enter a room and all the men stand up. I am a friend and/or a colleague to these people, not the Queen (though it is fun to have fantasties as such :D).