Ladylike & gentlemanly - offensive?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I thought about this thread last night, mostly because I was having trouble with the gender stereotype comments about ladylike and gentlemanly. I get that both have baggage, but I’ve always firmly believed that there’s a difference between a woman and a lady and likewise a man and a gentleman. (As an aside, there seems to be more perceived baggage with ladylike than gentlemanly.)

Additionally, while I believe that a positive self image is very important, I hardly think that correcting a child in public while using the above-mentioned terms when they’re flashing the world his or her underwear would cause the kid to get a complex.

When I was younger and was complimented on my behavior for acting like a lady, I was always flattered and proud, not offended. Similarly, when my behavior was termed unladylike, I was never mortified because of the term, but because I was caught misbehaving.

What are other poster’s thoughts? Are these terms truly offensive? Why? Do you feel that they would give kids a complex about their gender? Could you explain that as well?

This might even be two threads in one (i.e., correcting others’ kids in public and the ladylike vs. gender-neutral).

2

Well, the term ladylike can be applied to things that are considered okay for men but not for women - that’s where it gets sexist. Generally, ladylike evokes images of dainty women sitting demurely with their ankles crossed and speaking in soft voices.

3

“Ladylike” can be interpreted to mean “a lady would never embarass anyone in public, even the person who is beating the crap out of her.”

Note the dicotomy of “lady/men.” Nobody uses the words “lord” or “gentlewoman” today.

I prefer the term “good manners.” It is not good manners to show your undies in public, be they panties or briefs.

4

I’ve never heard someone tell a boy or man to ‘act like a gentleman,’ but I have heard ‘act like a lady’ (usually after a girl’s used a swear word).

5

My internal reaction whenever I was chastised with “ladylike” as a kid was, “Well, duh. I’m not a lady, I’m a kid!” So it was just never very *effective *with me. I was never interested in being a lady like **HazelNutCoffee **described.

For my own kids, I know what they best relate to. When my three year old takes toys away from her friends, I ask her if she thinks Annie would be greedy or would share. What can I say, she’s really into *Annie *and sees her as a role model. I’ll use whatever works!

For a stranger, I think things like “polite” or “good restaurant manners” or “unacceptable” are safer choices. You never know if the parent of the kid you’re correcting has a hot button around gender issues. “Polite” is a lot harder to argue. (Not that some people won’t try!)

The only time I find the terms *offensive *is when they’re used to limit choices that wouldn’t be limited to the other gender kid. If the kid wants to play ball and you’d let a boy play, then the girls should get to play too, ladylike or not. If she can’t play because she’s in a nice dress and Mom didn’t bring play clothes, then that should be explicitly stated, so she knows it’s not because she’s a girl, but because she’s wearing a dress.

6

I have two girls and I would never tell them they were being “unladylike” because it’s a term used to restrict the actions of girls/women in a way that would never be applied to boys/men. I wouldn’t want them to flash their knickers in public necessarily but I wouldn’t tell them not to because of some archaic stereotype of how females “should” act.

7

I think I’d feel weird using those terms because I’m not all that ladylike myself…honestly, I have no idea how I’ll parent my hypothetical kids. When you’re the kind of person who takes off your underwear in a bar because some guy asks you to or who goes around with no underwear on under a dress because it might be titillating, or who has friends who just take off their jeans because they’re too wet…well…it’s kind of hard to tell kids to be ladylike if you get my message.

Maybe I’ll have calmed down a little by the time I have kids. Mayyybe…

8

While I think the words “ladylike” and “gentlemanly” are a little pointless when talking about children (all kids are brats at one time or another), this is bullshit plain and simple.

NO ONE tries to “restrict the actions” of girls/women in the US any more and to suggest otherwise is stupid.

9

“NO ONE”? I’m the first to agree that things are hugely better, but you can’t think of any examples of anyone ever restricting the actions of girls/women?

10

Personally, I wish more people would act more “ladylike” or “gentlemanly” but then again, I kind of like common courtesies (that seem to not be very common anymore!). My children will be a lady and a gentleman, regardless of other people’s personal baggage as it is my firm opinion that the only way to bring back those common courtesies is to teach them to our children.

I think too many people get so hung up on semantics that they don’t see the larger picture. Some people think that their own personal experience is somehow universal and that because they felt humiliated by some random comment that everyone will.

11

Can you? Can you name one thing where someone said “Women cannot do this?” in this day and age and had the power to enforce it?

And don’t give me things like Augusta Country Club. That’s a private club and there are private women’s only golf clubs as well.

12

To name a few:

Voting before 1920
Abortion before Roe v. Wade
Getting a loan without a male co-signer
Running for public office
Leaving a battering husband
Having a baby without having a husband
Being artificially inseminated without having a husband
Getting married and still holding your teaching job

All of the above actions have been restricted in the past.

13

That’s impossible to prove. (On preview, I notice you’ve changed your tune to “and had the power to enforce it.”) First of all, I have a counterpoint example:

I was in high school. Healthy 16 year old girl. My father and grandfather were struggling to get a fridge into the house. I offered to help, and my grandfather laughed at me. My grandmother told me, with a straight face, that I couldn’t help because I was a girl, and that if I tried to lift something too heavy, my uterus would fall out. No, I’m not making it up. She said:

“Oh, you can’t do that. Women can’t lift heavy things, because your (gestures at abdomen) parts might get hurt.”
I said, “What? How? I mean…I might get a hernia as a long shot, but that can happen to anyone.”
She said, impatiently, “No no, I’m not talking about a hernia, I’m saying your…your female parts, something might fall out. My doctor told me!”

:dubious:

Ok, now while she’s a crazy old lady, she really believes that.

Here’s another example about female sportscasters: ESPN.com: NFL - Rooney blasts purpose of female sideline reporters

I’ve also heard people refer to boys as acting “ungentlemanly” before.

I think there’s no harm in the words, but I agree that “polite” is more useful, because it’s clear that it’s not just because the kid in question is a girl or boy, it’s about their behavior. It’s all about interpretation, and there’s plenty to argue about here, but I think it comes down to whether the person saying it is really advocating inequality based on gender.

14

I’m not sure Augusta Country Club being private is relevant, but the recent FLDS polygamist stuff–seems like they were restricting the actions of girls/women to me. Access to abortion is still problematic in a lot of states. Plus, since we’re talking about the whole “ladylike” idea, there are smaller ways of socially restricting girls…hinting that they won’t do as well at math/science, or certain sports. I mean, I don’t think it’s as easy as finding someone who will come out and explicitly say, “Women can’t do this” but the culture does send all kinds of messages to girls that it doesn’t send to boys.

15

This is my take on it, too. The assumption that using ladylike or gentlemanly causes gender issues always struck me as similar to one of those “Politically Correct Bedtime Stories” by James Finn Garner where the term women is changed to womyn because it can’t have the word man in it.

I want my son to be a polite, well-educated person. Not a doormat by any means, but someone who is pleasant and interesting to be around. In my humble opinion, politeness, education and articulation are hallmarks of either a gentleman or lady. The individual terms just happen to indicate which gender those characteristics are applied to. They have nothing to do (anymore) with whether a girl is allowed to play soccer because of her anatomy.

16

Thank you for proving my point by citing things that haven’t been true for decades.

And women have been able to vote for nearly a century. So thanks for playing.

17

I don’t see anything wrong with a teacher being able to say to her class, “I expect you all to behave like ladies and gentlemen.” As overlyverbose said, “politeness, education and articulation are hallmarks of either a gentleman or lady.” So if the male students decide to behave like ladies and the female students decide to behave like gentlemen, the teacher will be pleased – and shouldn’t be able to tell much difference.

18

Annie-Xmas - to be fair, Justin_Bailey did say no one tries to restrict the actions of women in the U.S anymore, referring to the present.

That said, I still pretty much disagree. When it was suggested that terms such as ‘ladylike’’ are used to restrict the actions of women and girls in ways that do not apply to boys and men, I think the poster was implying that it is more of a cultural or social attempt at restriction, not a physical or legal one.

There are still plenty of people the world over who believe than women should behave in a certain way and that men are not subject to the same ideals. There are certainly people who believe women should be homemakers and men should be breadwinners. There are still people who believe that women are supposed to try and look good for the benefit of men. There are still people who believe that their son should play sports and their daughter should take dance. There are still people who believe that their teenaged son should be proudly nailing every female he can and their teenaged daughter should be avoiding sex like the Black Death. And these people will try and restrict their son’s and daughter’s behaviour by reinforcing ideas of ‘ladylike-ness’ and ‘manliness’ - “girl’s don’t burp”, “boys don’t cry” etc.

I think what people are saying is that it is restrictive of the development of the child’s ideas of what is socially ‘allowable’ for their gender to try to correct what you see as poor behaviour by reference to a stereotype (“that’s not polite for a girl to do”), when the behaviour is just as easily rectified by saying “that’s not a polite thing to do” - the inference there being that it’s not polite for anyone regardless of sex.

ETA: :smack: I should have previewed and noticed that several of my points had already been addressed.

19

I think you’re both missing the point. The term ladylike isn’t about legal restrictions on women but about social disapproval. And it still happens a lot, although maybe it doesn’t happen much around Justin_Bailey. Although honestly this is not the kind of thing men would be that likely to notice if they weren’t looking for it. As a right-handed person I have no reason to notice all those things that make life difficult for left-handed people.

One example that comes to my mind is from 9 years ago, when a church closed its daycare center because it did not support women with children working outside the home. I even provide a link, due to tremendous Google-fortune http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2006/04/the_good_news_daycare.aspx True, this is just one church and they are apparently modernizing their thinking now in 2006. But this represents a still-sizable body of thought out there that a woman should stay home with kids and not work.

Further, one of the most irrational things Hillary Clinton has been criticized for has been for wearing pantsuits. Relatively non-political link here focused on the pantsuit issue http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/mag/article.pl?articleId=29858 What’s OK about criticizing women for wearing pretty much the only practical and appropriate type of clothing for professional work in business and politics? And the “not ladylike” card is exactly the one being played here.

All that said, though, I have nothing against the use of ladylike by **SHAKES ** in the original thread. Showing underwear in public is something neither ladies nor gentlemen do.

20

Yes, my reaction was the same as the OP. It would never occur to me that ladylike was an offensive or sexualized term. To me a gentleman or lady is someone who practices good manners. That’s good manners as is “is considerate of others”, not “uses the right salad fork”. In the other thread I understood “not very ladylike” to mean babyish or slobish, not, you know, whorish.