Are we not men?

Oh bull.

I remember my best friend from high school, we grew up in the midst of the feminist era of the 70s in a college town that was a center for feminism. He got married to a beautiful woman with a career (a nurse) while he was in college. Then she got pregnant and he had to drop out and get a job. A few years later, after his 3rd kid, he said to me, “we grew up in a different world from our parents, men like us were educated to be feminists and nontraditional, and now I have a wife that just wants to be barefoot and pregnant. What happened?” We pretty much lost contact for many years, and when I moved back to my hometown, I saw him and his wife in public. She was fat and he looked really tired and had aged beyond his years. They didn’t see me, and I didn’t have the heart to go up and say hello.

I’m still waiting for the day when men get to be liberated, and women stop viewing me as a meal ticket.

This reminds me of a study I read

Not the thread so much except the title. That if you are less “masculine” you are less of a man. Men don’t need anyone to oppress them, they oppress themselves.

Chas.E to me that sounds more like simple incompatable societal views than anything else. A problem with him not realising who he was married to. If the guy couldn’t even tell that much about his wife then he probably would have been unhappy with whoever he married. Not all women or men are exactly alike as you seem to be trying to argue.

Worse than any of this is that ‘modern’ women don’t know the real reason for the male manners.

When I light a cigarette for a lady she grasps my hands in hers and pulls the flame towards her.

When I help a lady put her coat on, I get to pull her hair out from underneath the collar.

When I guide and protect her through a crowd then she holds my hand.

When I open a car door than she grasps my hand least she lose her balance.

And on and on and on…

Yes, the reason is manners but there is suppose to be a payoff.


Uh, nothing like what you described that happened to your friend can happen without permission (exactly who was it that was having sex with this guy’s wife and getting her pregnant?). Used to be, you didn’t have a choice, male or female. Man and woman get married, have kids, guy goes to work, supports family, woman stays home, raises kids.

Seems like your friend made his choice for good or ill. If he’d wanted a different kind of wife, he could have held out for one. He didn’t, they got married, she got pregnant and then did what you were traditionally expected to do. Remember that child care costs money too - and if the wife didn’t stay home, what kind of care could they afford? I seem to remember that nurses’ salaries back then were pitiful, and have only gotten better since other work fields that paid better became more open to women.

As for the guy in question: good for his kids, maybe not for him. Once you have kids, doing the right thing revolves around what’s best for them, not yourself. Making prudent choices will never be a trend nor go out of fashion. Sounds like if he doesn’t like his life now, he didn’t make 'em at the start and he’s reaping what he sowed.

Morever, his life ain’t your problem.

If it hadn’t been for my presence, my husband could never had gone to graduate school. I supported us through it. I’m not alone in that. The thing is, our relationship is a partnership and no one is expected to haul the whole load, either emotionally or financially. We pick and choose who can do what best when, and it works. Not all relationships are like ours, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t fair when it comes to who contributes what. It’s just that we’ve been lucky that there’s more choices now about who contributes what. If it had been frowned upon that I support the two of us while he went back to school, it would have been detrimental to both of us in the long run.

If I were you, if you don’t like the kind of women you are dating, I’d look real close at how I am meeting people, and make a change. And don’t expect to look for a meal ticket yourself. Judging from how you have worded your post, I wouldn’t want to date you at all. You seem to expect the worst out of women, and what you expect will be what you get.

Oh, and what the fuck does your friend’s wife being fat have to do with anything??? I don’t remember hearing in any marriage vows that there is a weight requirement either way.

You know what? I like having doors opened for me and I like having my chair pulled out for me and I like a man helping me into my coat. Do I expect these things? No. No I think rather highly of a man who does these things? Yes.

It seems that in today’s society it has to be one or the other. You can either be a strong, intelligent woman or you can be a lady. Maybe I’m way off here but I always saw the women’s lib movement as trying to make it so women could be both. Why should I have to choose between chivalry and personal strength? I shouldn’t. They can go hand in hand. I can go out with a man, have him kiss my hand upon arrival, have him open my car door, have him walk me to my door after the date and still get up in the morning and go to my upper-management level job. I don’t have to choose between being a debutante and being Gloria Steinem.

I don’t think gentleman qualities in this day and age should be expected. But I will say a gentlemanly touch and a good sense of humor will get you pretty far. :wink:

Romansperson, you missed the point. His life isn’t my problem, except when he asked me what was the problem. I didn’t have any answers, I just think it’s an excellent question.
The reason I said they became fat and world-worn is because the last time I saw them, they were both fairly young, athletic types, who looked like they wanted to take on the world, and now they both looked unhappy and like they had one foot in the grave. Marriage is supposed to make you happy, isn’t it? You could see he wasn’t, and see it from a mile away.

Moreover, MY life isn’t YOUR problem and I don’t recall asking you (or anyone else) for any advice. I’m just stating my opinion and you can agree or disagree, state your own opinion or whatever, but the personal attacks are unnecessary.

Do we not wear skirts?

with apologies to John Kricfalusi(sp?)

Probably not. I’m one of the few dopers who has never been seen by another doper. There are persistant rumors that I may not exist at all …

I always heard that the women’s movement was about giving us choices. I don’t have to stay home, barefoot and pregnant, if I don’t want to. I can go out and get a job. Then I can take maternity leave and be barefoot & recovering from pregnancy for six weeks, then go back to work after sleeping for approximately 6 hours over the course of those six weeks, and be expected to perform just as I did before I left when all I really want to do is fall asleep on my desk, then I’ve got to go home and take care of the baby on STILL no sleep, and my husband has to work too, of course, but he works nights so it’s still ME getting up every two hours to feed the kid, and then I’ve got to go to work the next day…
Oh yeah. You’re DAMN RIGHT I appreciate a door being held open for me. OH yeah.

Oh, it’s nice when men hold open the door for women or pull out their chairs to seat them, but I think the sign of a REAL MAN is when he offers to do the cooking, cleaning, and laundry, as well as offers to give his woman a massage and basically do anything within reason her little heart desires all with a smile. :wink:

Gosh, does that sound sexist? Oh well.

I think it’s good manners to be courteous to people no matter what their gender. How people express courtesy to others depends on the individual. Just so long as men or women are sincerely trying to be nice in holding doors open, blah, blah, blah, I don’t see why the party receiving the service should be offended. I don’t expect such treatment specifically because I’m a female, but it’s nice when I can find it. And I have no qualms about holding the door open for men, either.

Well hell, punkin, all you had to do was ask!

Put me down for a vote in the “gentlemen are gentlemen to everyone” column but what I really wanted to say is:

To those of you whose cultural consciousness might extend BEYOND DEVO (I know, it’s a reach) you might recall another group who were concerned about their status as men. They were bound by The Law (and Charles Laughton) to act as men:

The Sayer of the Law (Bela Lugosi): “What is the law?”
Men(?): “The Law say, ‘Don’t spill blood’!”

Leonard Maltin gives it 3-1/2 stars:

My impression has always been that feminism is now about redefining “chivalry” to mean “oppression.” But the movement ignored one half of the equation, i.e. the male side. Women are now free of any requirement to act like “ladies” if they don’t wish to. But I know a lot of guys who still think they need to be “gentleman” in more significant ways than just opening doors, et. al. A lot of younger women (emphasis on younger) seem to think they are entitled to whatever they want from a man, and that his world should revolve around her. Some younger men seem to think it is their duty as “The Man” to give her what she wants, and do what she says. I couldn’t possible list how many of my male friends have come to me, enraged at how they felt like they were being used or taken for granted by their girlfriends/spouses/significant others. Sometimes I mention these male friends’ problems to women I know, and often I hear “why can’t he just take it like a man?” It’s as if “taking it like a man” meant accepting whatever a woman chose to dish out, with no consequences ever devolving upon her for this behavior.

So what does this mean? I think it means that women ARE truly liberated, in the sense that they can now get away with the most un-ladylike behavior, but that men are still held to the same old standard they have always been held to. And that is not fair. But then, “fair” doesn’t seem to matter to many of the people involved in this. The women have what they wanted-the freedom to ignore any social role they used to be required to follow. And men have…what? The freedom to not open doors? The freedom to commit suicide and go insane more often and die younger on average than women? I don’t call that “freedom” at all. If my gender is in charge, then someone forgot to notify us.

If stastics are the best thing you can come up with to support your arguement Lizard, then you don’t have much of one. Women can get away with more certainly, but I bet this doesen’t affect you. Certainly gay men are held to a higher standard than lesbians, and crossdressing, etc men are looked at much worse than women doing it, but if you aren’t acting out of the socially accepted norms this doesen’t hurt you at all.

Let someone around here talk to a woman as “an equal” (read “man”), or go off on a rant about a womans post (especially one of their emotional traumatic posts like the one “why I hate men: a rant about my ex”) and see how everyone flocks to defend her honor with comments like “you shouldn’t talk to women like that” and “be gentle with her, she’s a girl”… blah blah blah ad nauseum.

Women don’t want equality, and they don’t need it. They already rule the world. Perhaps it’s men that need equality… Nah, we’re cool, we can hadle it. (And Lizards comments are right on).

If men are stupid enough to let women take advantage of them, then I say go for it, ladies. As for me, I get plenty of dates and more offers for sex then I care to have and I don’t give them “anything they want”. If I were rich it wouldn’t matter. I’d probably give them anything they wanted, but I’m smart enough to know full well that that doesn’t get me loyalty. Also, I tend to date women that are more down to earth and not so materialestic. My second wife used to buy me all kinds of stuff before we got married. I was kinda poor then but I guess I had something else she wanted (my sanity apparently). She turned out to be very materialistic. But what the fuck, I knew better then to marry her. I take the blame for that. I also moved on. Que fucking sera sera.

So with that all said: Be a fucking man and either take it or tell the bitch to lick your nuts and swallow your load and you might buy her ass a happy meal (hey, if she’s only in it for what she can get out of you then she’s a bitch and a ho). And if she don’t like it, get the fuck on down the road, girl because in this world there’s probably 3-5 women for every man (stats not confirmed, but I know it’s a high number), i.e. there’s lots of other fish in the sea.

And to the women that think they are being treated disrespectful because a man pulls out your chair or opens a door, shut the fuck up and enjoy it, bitch. You ho’s are confusing all these dumb ass men out there that can’t figure out what women want.

I seem to recall jalapeno last arguing about pit bulls in another forum. And arguing with the same kind of logic and coherence displayed here.

Welcome back jalapeno.

Well Sterra, you managed to ignore everything but the last two sentences of my post. You agree to my main point, then claim it doesn’t affect me, a stance which contradicts half of what I said. Unless you are assuming I don’t care how my male friends feel, (a false assumption) how do you reconcile this contradiction? You also mention the “socially accepted norms,” without realizing that THEY are exactly what I’m talking about!

Note: Nowhere did I claim that “statistics” proved anything.

So, looking forward to high school next year?

And if that wasn’t logical and cohernet then I submit you’re not very adept at the english language.

As for TwistofFate… High school? SHit, I wish I could go back that far. But thanks for thinking I’m young. I have a new outlook on life so maybe that’s why I feel so young and vibrant too. Are you one of thos weenies that let women “take advantage” of you? Poor schmuck.