Jalepeno,
First off, your username is one of my very favorites (next to Bug Vomit, who only exists in memories). I’d like to take issue with this specific quote, however:
Can you show me one single instance where this has happened? I’ve been here for two years and over 3000 posts and I honestly don’t ever recall someone being defended for being a girl. That seems like the sort of thing people would get totally up in arms about.
Anyhoo, regarding the OP: Hold the door, don’t hold it- doesn’t matter to me. I hold for all genders and species. DO NOT, however, ever take my hand and kiss it when we meet. That is just fucking creepy and obvious. Gross. (Yes, it has happened many times from men my age and slightly older- 30’s, 40’s)
Well, hell. I like women to take advantage of me. Mrs Chance tells me what needs to be done and I do it. New Bathroom? I’ll call the handyman. Ladnscaping? No worries.
It’s curiously freeing.
Off that tangent though…
I try to be polite to the people I meet. Some of that is just my natural inclination and some of it is small town, rural culture. I find that the higher population density gets the ruder people become. Think of it as a supply/demand curve. More people=more supply=less value.
I think the entire notion of ‘gentlemanly’ behavior served a real purpose at one time. Women had effectively NO ability to compete with men other than by making men compete for their favors (sexual or otherwise). Therefore, the men who treated the women best acheived the highest level of success in terms of gaining women’s positive attention.
Now, obviously, women are able to weild power and control in more direct matters now. In my profession there are a great many (possibly a majority) of women. If the phone rings at work it’s likely that the person on the other end trying to sell me a pig in a poke is female. And that’s a good thing.
But does it actually change the sexual politics of being polite? Hey, I’m married and straight. But I knew when I was single that every guy I met I had to outperform in terms of impressing the women in the world. The women could bestow or withhold their attention and favors at their discretion and the men were my competitors.
And now? I’m married and I try to keep that behavior up because hell, Mrs Chance is just wonderful. I appreciate her more every single day that she puts up with my bumbling attempts to be an adult.
You never claimed that statistics proved anything, you just used them in your post like they proved something.
Anywais, my point was that you should not make your point along gender lines. You say girls do this and guys do that based on your own personal experience. The issue is more complex than that.
Damn, and I thought Danny Elfman wrote “What is the law? No spill blood!” Oh well…
I am a thoroughly modern Millie with so many choices I can hardly stand it. I can choose to have a career or not, to have children or not. I have control over my life. But I also have a husband who has treated me like a princess since the day we met. With him, I am not just “one of the guys.” I am special, and loved, and respected, and pampered.
The first time he opened the car door for me, I was amazed. It made me feel great. Sure, I am fully capable of opening my own damn door, but it was the thoughtfullness of the gesture. It was nice, it said “I know you can do it, but let me because I would like to.” I like having my husband do things for me. Of course, more vaccuuming, dishwashing and midnight feedings would help, but the chivalry will do for now!
Of course I can open doors, light cigarettes, and pull out chairs for myself. But it’s nice to have it done for me, if only because it feels old-fashioned and romantic.
Jalapeno- the bitter, angry way you talk about bitches and hos is telling, don’t you think? And Twisty was commenting on your apparent lack of maturity, based on the content of your post. In two paragraphs, you called women bitches three times and “ho’s” twice (if you don’t want to sound like an MTV teeny-bopper gansta-wannabe, try using “whore”). An inability to form meaningful emotional relationships is… oh, never mind…
But honestly, I’m not bitter. I love women. Women of all sizes, shapes and colors. I think among God’s creation, women are by far the best. (yeah, I know, we can debate creation and all that, you believe what you want and I’ll do the same.)
As far as referring to women as bitches and ho’s, I stand by that. But I never said all women were that. I thought I was clear that that reference only applies to those women that are just out to use men for what “things” they can get out of them (I admit my post was juvenile, but wtf, it do be da pit). You come up with a name for men that do the same thing and I’ll back you up on it. And, like I said, if men are stupid enough to let themselves be fooled like that, then it’s their own damn fault. I think the saying goes: One born every minute. (didn’t one of those circus guys coin that?)
Let’s all be honest though, men don’t do things like hold open doors, etc. because we think you’re weak, we do it because we want to be nice (and a lot just want to get to know you and they hope you will see them as a good guy and reciprocate the feeling, and still most of us do it just because we were raised that way and it has no meaning other then being a gentleman).
Zeete: Thanks, I think… Anyway… As far as me pointing out those incidents of people being jumped on en masse by others for speaking out against a woman, it’s not gonna happen. I don’t see the need or point in it. But it does and has happened many times on here. So what? Doesn’t hurt my feelings and I don’t feel the need to point out these things other then to say I’ve seen it on here many times. BFD. caca happens.
I don’t think they “prove” anything, but I do think they indicate a certain direction. In social science and mass psychology, perception and belief is reality. That’s where I think debates on this issue frequently go wrong. People pull out statistics to try to “prove” that sexism/racism/etc. exist, but we are talking about something that exists in the mind, i.e., attitudes. Sure, there may be some parallels in the real world to point to that indicate the state of things, but the significance of these things lays in how they are percieved. Do men open doors or do anything else for women because deep down they think women are inferior? I very highly doubt it. And that’s just one example.
**
True, the issue is more complex than that, for the reasons mentioned above. But what I said still stands, again for the reasons I mentioned above. “Personal experience” is the determining factor in shaping people’s opinions. Do not quote a social psychology study to your average man on the street. He’ll go with his eyes and ears first, especially if they contradict any highfalutin’ “science” you try to feed him. History has shown time and time again that what point of view will hold sway is whatever can attract the greatest number of adherents. History has also shown that the most popular views don’t necessarily have to be supported by any objective reality.
We can sit and argue “science” all night, or we can chuck the gender studies out the window and say “here is what people really believe.” The two may not be the same. And we’re not dealing with immutable laws of the Universe here-this isn’t “hard” science. Why shouldn’t what people truly believe by their own admission be the single most important factor in shaping our society?
Are you one of thos weenies that let women “take advantage” of you? Poor schmuck.
Only if they ask me very nicely, but that could have something to do with the fact that I’m female and capricious (not to mention, shallow, fickle and vain). :rolleyes:
Does that mean that if one person doesen’t believe it it makes it untrue? Lots of gays believe that they can “turn straight”. Transgendered people often never fit into what people believe. Intersexed(people whom a gender cannot be determined) people often feel that they are “of both genders”. What people “truly believe” changes radically from culture to culture. People in the Taliban truly believe a woman should be stoned for walking around without a man escort. Hindus have a temple and a god for men who act like women.
There are undeniable gender differences, however you cannot tell mental differences from physical appearance.
Strictly in the realm of social relationships and attitudes, yes, absolutely, for that one person! And the more people believe a certain point of view, the more it become the “accepted wisdom.” If all men believed that women were not their equals, then women wouldn’t be, even though they have equal protection under law. (And in the United States, they really do) My point all along (and you seem to want to get sidetracked talking about gays, etc., which I think is a different issue altogether, unless I misunderstand your analogy) has been that only a small minority of men thinks women are inferior, but many women continue to proclaim that our whole culture is built on this belief. It just isn’t true. For years feminists have proclaimed women’s low self-esteem and self-loathing as “proof” that our society was tilted against women, without ever investigating whether men were having similar feelings all along. Lots of men feel put upon, taken advantage of, powerless, and worthless. But yet we are still supposed to be the ones with “all the power.” Hogwash.
The forces that run our lives make people feel inadequate and worthless, not just women.
Well having more power doesen’t make you feel any better. Society has never been “tilted against women” it has been against women gaining power, and men giving up that power. So its tilted against the women who want to gain the power and the men who don’t want the responsibility. Both will feel put upon, taken advantage of, powerless, and worthless.
I knew a staunch feminist once to whom I said “patriachy is human nature.” She looked at me as if I were an idiot, until I said “name one society in all of recorded history that was NOT patriarchal.” She couldn’t because there has never been one. I agree that our society is tilted against women gaining power, as have all societies since time began. I agree with everything you said in your last post, but I just wanted to point the above out. I think we have finally found our common ground.
While I agree with most of what you said, I think your statement about every goverment being a patriarchy shows where are differences lie. I could name many societies that have women who have power. For example, just about every goverment except the Taliban is not a patriarchy. While I agree that women seek out power less than men there are women in power that govern. There are women that “wear the pants in the family” so to speak. A patriarchy is where men rule, and that very rarely happens. Men just try to rule more.
