Not weirder, no, but equally weird. Are you trying to compare this New Age mess to conservative values or established religions? And then saying those wouldn’t be made fun of on this board? Really?
Short answer: Yes.
I’m sure they would, much the way fundamentalist Christians believe “persecution” proves their message. So? That doesn’t mean they’re right.
If you’re not an atheist, you believe in things that are much more incoherent than this. If you are an atheist, what’s so bad about this particular “twaddle”? Are you saying you wouldn’t trade in some of the worse religions (like most of them) for this stuff?
No you missed my point. “Not accepting their claims” proves nothing. That’s like saying “Hey, you don’t believe that X tastes good… so it MUST taste good!”. That makes no sense.
What would prove it for them would be if people reacted like brutes. People politely rejecting their claims would prove nothing. People rationally and respectfully arguing against them could possibly dis-prove it.
And since “it” in this case is made up of a lot of statements and connections made, you would have to make arguments against all of them. Let’s say that video consisted of 100 pieces of seperate informations supporting 5 claims. Are you saying that every claim is wrong, or that some are or could be true. What about the information, all false? Some false, some correct?
The most common reply to “It’s stupid!” is “No it’s not”, but I think the BEST retort is “What makes you think it is stupid?”. Because that can get an interesting and possibly fruitful discussion going, rather than just a yelling match.
What makes you think it would be any better? I’ve seen similar themed attempts to justify eugenics, for example; claiming that those with genetic defects have been judged unfit by Mother Nature and should therefore be left to die or sterilized, instead of being helped with evil masculine Science. I don’t see a man-bashing attempt to demonize goal seeking, rationality and knowledge as going anywhere good.
The only quality I think you can assume to exist in me as a result of my having a vagina is the ability to push babies out through it. Other than that…well, I think there are some qualities that tend to be feminine. My issue is with the assumption. It’s one thing to say, “she’s very nurturing, in that earth-mother kind of way,” with the implication that that’s a feminine quality. It’s a far different thing to say, “she’s female, so she’s no doubt a nurturing, earth-mother type.” I think the difference here is very, very important to women. To assume that a woman is naturally going to be good at certain things and that a man is going to be good at other kinds of things is what causes women to be discriminated against in the workforce. As a worker, I could give a rip whether or not someone appreciates whatever feminine qualities I might have. My job may rely on me having other kinds of qualities, and it would suck if someone wrongly made an assumption about what I’m good at.
No, it’s not, it’s right there, in plain English: “I celebrate your ability to pay attention to what is here, right now. As men, our preoccupation with goals and results often has burnt us out…”
It says right there that we have that ability, and that their preoccupation with goals are results are counter to that. How are you missing that?
I didn’t say it was intended, but an insult can be there without being intended. It’s kind of weird that you think otherwise.
And, your analogy doesn’t hold. For one thing, how am I supposed to be flattered if the quality doesn’t describe me? For another, the compliment about looking good in green doesn’t have an implied subtext, it’s a straightforward comment with no mention of red at all. On the other hand, if I said, “maybe you shouldn’t wear the red dress, you look so good in green,” then it would make more sense to interpret that as meaning that red isn’t my color. More importantly, though, there’s a straightforward comparison between men and women, that is in fact the entire point of this video…we celebrate what you are. People don’t tend to compliment others on qualities they themselves hold…they tend to admire people for being good at things they aren’t personally good at, and this video reflects that tendency.
It appears to be, from my experiences on this board, that anything Stoid says is pretty much guaranteed to be incorrect. It may form the basis of a new branch of philosophy.
Actually most of the males on the board recognize that pretty much anything Stoid says is pretty much guaranteed to be incorrect. It’s not really a gender thing.
Oh, you mean she was wrong about the uniqueness of the female perspective? Imagine that.
Yeah, you do, and you are, and it’s ridiculous. And I hope to god for your sake it’s just some weird thing you do in the context of impersonal settings like video and message boards, vs. a reflection of how you think generally, because if it is how you think and react generally you must be eating up spectacular amounts of time and energy being insulted by all kinds of harmless things.
ohmygodohmygodohmygod. MEYER…PAY ATTENTION, PLEASE!!!
Or don’t, but if you can’t be bothered to maintain focus on the actual course of the conversation, I’m not going to lead you back to your post, then my answer, then your response, then mine over and over so you can remember what the hell we’re talking about. Especially when it’s so goddamn minor and dumb to begin with…
Nope.
No, they don’t.
Look, you and Sarahfeena and some others are apparently the kind of people who look for and find insults where none were meant or intended. In fact, in this case, you have simply ignored statements which flatly refute what you are imagining is “implied”. You are looking for it, you’re determined to find it, and considering the incredible ease with which you leap from A to Z and insist that all the letters in between are unnecessary, I don’t doubt for a second that you absolutely will find exactly what you seek, every single time. How could you not, since it’s in your own head?
Since none of it has anything whatsoever to do with the plain words and clear intention of the people you are busy being insulted by, it’s only about you, I don’t need to continue to debate it with you. What point is there in debating things that exist entirely in your imagination? If you see leprechauns and unicorns, you see them. Doesn’t mean they are real, but since you are seeing them they are real for you. Okay, doesn’t make any difference in my world.
As for the plain facts of what this video and manifesto actually say: it is open, positive, embracing, and no matter how gooey or new agey or imperfect it may be, it’s coming from a very good place, and I respect the intention in it and the spirit in which it’s offered.
You used various bolding, underlining, and italics in this so it must be true. Let’s get back to basics Stoid. What was this good place you are referencing. Almost everyone here just saw some incredibly creepy people reading directly from a Manifesto!!! on camera. At least half of them looked to be under the influence of something and there may or may not have been a gunman off to the side forcing the rest of them to do it. They spewed a bunch of stuff that makes little sense to anyone under 50 and many of us, both male and female, feel victimized because you tricked us into watching that? Did you catch the critiques referenced from other places on the web given earlier in the thread. We are being mild because we love you.
Serious question. If you could translate this into your own words, what would you tell me as a 37 year old male with two daughters. I really want you to do this for us all as an exercise and a test of your feminine traits.
No, it’s not. It’s the same sort of quasi-feminist bullshit that’s always irritated me.
In the mid-eighties, I was a teenager and a nerd, and I went to a French camp (not in France, a camp for kids who liked studying French). The counselors did a mock cultural experience for us the first night, in which they pretended to be hosts from another culture. They invited us in and had the boys sit on chairs while the girls sat on the floor. When dinner was served, the boys ate first, followed by the girls. And so on.
Afterwards, we talked about it. The girls (and some of the boys, including SNAGgy me) were incensed by the mistreatment of women in this culture. As the counselors expected: then they sprang their trap.
Women in this culture are very honored, they told us. They sit on the floor to honor their deep connection to the earth, whereas men, who have less of a connection, sit in chairs. Men eat first in case the food is bad or poisoned; it’s only after they’ve tested the food and shown it safe that women will eat.
So, the counselors concluded, the culture is actually pretty awesome, and you shouldn’t let your preconceived notions blind you to what’s going on.
I alone among the campers remained incensed. It doesn’t matter which way the sexism goes, I insisted: it’s still wrong. The counselors pretty much ignored me.
This is the same sort of thing. Bullshitting about deep connections to mother earth does nobody any good, and indeed these sorts of arguments have been used in the past to perpetuate oppression.
Stoid, you seem to assume that almost everyone who offers serious criticism of this video has personal problems, and you helpfully psychoanalyze them and offer helpful advice about what you hope they’re like in real life. Is it possible–is it remotely possible–that sarahfeena, jsgoddess, miss elizabeth, and others here have genuine, legitimate gripes with the video, and that you’re letting your own biases blind you to these gripes?
Stoid, you and and this video did do an excellent job of bringing males and females into major agreement even among personalities where I wouldn’t think that is possible. It is rare to see a hive mind form among people with so many different perspectives especially on the Dope. We can hardly agree if agriculture or genocide is right or wrong most of the time.
I assume this was some type of performance art and have to applaud you and the makers of the video for that. Most of us really can agree on the basics.
And this is another awesome example of how you argue. Not only are you right, but I already knew you were right before I posted: the only possible way to disagree with you is to do it dishonestly.
Bullshit.
Certainly I know there are a lot of people who think that there are general differences between how man and women view the world. In general, those people are sexist. There are exceptions, of course–if you’re talking about things such as the effects of different levels of hormones on the neurosystem, or if you’re talking about how social gender roles typically lead to different life experiences, we can have a productive conversation. But if you’re talking in vague sparkles about being in the here-and-now or whatever such, then you’re sexist, whether or not those vague sparkles are superficially complimentary to one gender or the other.
Well, if these guys were interviewing you for a job and saying: “due to your nurturing femininity, we don’t want you to work here”, you’d have a point. In this context, it’s strange.
I missed nothing, because I took it all in without looking for something to be insulted by. As a result, I understood perfectly what they were saying: “We are failing to be present, we think you are better at that and we should be more like that.” Which really is kinda hard to miss if you actually continue to listen or read the whole sentence, **including the part you keep leaving out:
Why haven’t you been quoting** the whole thing,** Sarahfeena?
Really? “As humans, our preoccupation with goals and results has often burnt us out, making us unavailable for relationship.”? Why would they say that? Certainly it’s true of some women, but in general you find more women unhappy about men showing up for the relationship than the reverse, and this is what they intended to address. Particularly if you go “stretch” to reading the complete passage:
[ul]
[li]I honor your capacity to **listen to your body **and its needs for food, rest and playtime.[/li][/ul]
Using your logic, I guess this really means: “…you’re so busy eating, sleeping, and fucking off, you never work hard like we do.”
[ul]
[li]I celebrate your ability to pay attention to what is here, right now.[/li][/ul]
Well, how about*: “You’re too irresponsible to consider future consequences, we are left to do all the planning for our future.”*
[ul]
[li]As men, our preoccupation with goals and results often has burnt us out and made us unavailable for relationship.[/li][/ul]
You’ve already said what you think the first half of the sentence implies, but if you take the WHOLE SENTENCE…umm… let me think for a minute. Oh wait, I know: You don’t care about goals and results like we do, you are just clingy and obsessive, get a life already.
[ul]
[li] I know we have drawn you into this imbalance as well, so often frustrating your longing to connect.[/li][/ul]
This is getting tougher… umm, what’s insulting to women about the imbalance they are taking ownership of? Oh wait, I know! It’s us because we’re obsessive and clingy about relationships,and that is creating an imbalance… but they said they draw us into the imbalance, so I guess maybe that’s not it, and they are frustrating our longing to connect..hmmm. I’m stumped. I just can’t figure out what the implied insult is here, but then I don’t have a lot of practice with it.
[ul]
[li]The time for a process-centred way of being is now upon us.[/li][/ul]
Well, viewed in the context of what else they’ve said my inclination is to read it as referring to being present: be in the process, vs. being about the result. But again, I’m coming up empty with how this is insulting, since they are saying that the time has come to do this. Are they complaining that it’s being forced on them somehow?
[ul]
[li] I welcome your wisdom to maintain balance in our bodies, and in our ways of meeting.[/li][/ul]
Welcoming our wisdom? I guess maybe it’s insulting that they limit it like this instead of saying hey welcome our wisdom in everything imaginable, but that’s about all I can think of. I just suck at finding the implied insults, I’m afraid.
Yeah, I’m kinda strange like that. I’m pretty much about people’s intentions, I admit. If their intentions are good, I just don’t really see the point in aggressively scrutinizing the execution to come up with ways it could be misconstrued. I can’t see any payoff in it, and I think it’s very weird that anyone else does because I don’t see anything positive or useful coming out of it. I find it much more rewarding and useful to focus on the plain intention.
You don’t have to be flattered any more than you have to be insulted. You just recognize that it isn’t about you at all and move on.
I agree. Nor does “As men, our preoccupation with goals and results often has burnt us out and made us unavailable for relationship.” have an implied subtext. It’s a straightforwward and complete statement, the first part of which is an explanation of how their lack of balance has led to their failure in relationships. Absolutely no hint of a diss on women for failing to set goals. In fact, the important word is “preoccupation”. It’s not that they are such bitchen goal setters and we’re hopelessly drifting, it’s that they are so obsessively focused on one thing, they shut out everything else and it has a terrible effect on their relationships.
When you don’t make it a point to ignore the complete sentence, it is an unambiguous admission of failure. So managing to find an insulting subtext is kind of amazing, really.
Um, no. I’m unable to apologize because I didn’t participate in all those bad things men did to women. I haven’t raped anyone, burned anyone at the stake, barred anyone from political or religious office, etc., etc. Why would I apologize?
What makes women more connected to the earth than men? This is certainly something I’ve heard before but given how many lesbian communes failed in Arkansas because the women didn’t understand how hard it was to live off the land I’m going to call baloney on this one. Women aren’t any more deeply connected to the earth than men. Or hell, maybe they are. Someone explain to me what this means?
You know what? I’m really not going to apologize for this. The use of data and logic is how we get things done. I love how these people are perpetuating their own stereotypes about women. I wonder if they believe women aren’t good at math or science. Does anyone know?
Can someone tell me what this means? Because I’m a man and I can generally tell when I need food, rest, and when I feel like its playtime.
Sorry, Stoid, but this manifesto is pablum. The speakers do not have a nuanced understanding of gender issues throughout history. They ignore all the good things that men have done and they ignore any of the bad that women have done. During the 1970s when gender studies was new it was very political and it was approached in a very us (women) versus them (men)way. These days gender studies has become a little more nuanced and take into account race, class, politics, and other factors. Man bad. Woman good. That’s just so simplistic. The manifesto offers nothing particularly insightful. I am not going to worship the feminine any more than I worship the masculine. It’s just silly.
Nothing, it’s a meaningless phrase. It sounds profound but that’s all. The only way a woman has a stronger connection to the Earth than I do is if someone superglues her feet to the ground.
Well, see, there’s the whole barefoot and pregnant thing…
What makes you think I’m using up spectacular amounts of time being insulted? You presented a video, presumably for people to watch and react to, I shared my reaction, and apparently you are seriously aggrieved that that reaction does not match yours. Watching the video and sharing my reaction took all of 2 minutes. I did not sit here at home and stew about it or anything.
I am capable of looking at something and saying ‘that’s boring and lame’ or even ‘that’s kind of insulting’ without tying myself into knots of anger and without deliberately seeking out insults. I don’t know why you think that must require so much of my energy, but it doesn’t.
Nobody is saying that you’re not free to have your own opinion. But are you seriously of the opinion that you watched this video and found the only possible meaning and interpretation of it? That your background, your life, your preexisting personal opinions had nothing to do with how the video made you feel? Because I’m unaware of any piece of literature or art that is not open to some interpretation, and this is no exception. And yet you keep insisting that the rest of us have it all wrong and that there must be something mentally wrong with us.
It’s a wacky idea, I know, but I…listened to the words. Creepy disturbing stuff like:
[ul]
[li] I come to you today as a man committed to becoming more conscious in every way. I feel deep love, great respect and a growing sense of worship for the gifts of the feminine.[/li][li]We can create great miracles together by nurturing each other in a conscious way, by treating each other with reverence and respect, and by worshiping the divinity expressed in both masculine and feminine energy.[/li][li]I commit to respecting the arts of feeling, intuition and wisdom of the feminine heart, so that together we can integrate them into a balanced view of life, that honors and includes all wisdoms.[/li][li] I honor your capacity for peaceful resolution of conflicts, your ability to apologize effectively and forgive with grace.[/li][li]We welcome your wisdom in creating a world that can get along without resorting to destruction.[/li][li]From this day, moving forward, I vow to treat your heart as the sacred temple it is, and I commit to honoring the feminine in you and me and in my relationship to all life. I know that by leaving the past behind and joining hands in the present, we can create a synergy of our strengths. Together, there is nothing we cannot do.[/li][li]Together we can make miracles[/li][/ul]
I guess I should probably have run screaming in horror at all this disgusting talk about love, respect, reverence, peace, grace.. Maybe I’ll realize someday what a terrible mistake I’ve made but for now I’ll take what comfort I can in knowing that at least I’ve alerted you all to this insidious nightmare of ugliness and insanity that was, as you say, almost certainly created by unseen people with guns. Probably threatening to behead them, too.
Your insight is awesome.
I admire your willingness to stick up for what you genuinely believed was right. I don’t have enough information to discuss the particulars one way or another, except to say that what you describe sounds like a lesson in cultural differences that deserves a closer look.
No, I take issue with anyone trying to sell the idea that the imaginary insults they invented qualify as “serious criticism”.
Especially when they try to sell it by being, shall we say, “incomplete” - see my previous post.
Just don’t make stuff up.
Good to know this is your point of view. I don’t agree and I don’t observe it to be universal, but that’s what keeps things interesting.
Okay. Thanks for addressing it and rejecting it on its own terms, I respect that completely.
No, I don’t. I keep rejecting your insistence that you have some special understanding that the authors actually meant a whole host of things for which there is no evidence of any kind.
And as long as your criticism is based on this magical ability you believe you have that makes your assumptions, insertions, additions, distortions (not to mention subtractions!) and inventions valid substitutions for what the words actually say…I will reject your opinion as meaningless.