It’s not strange in the least to hope that people will not assume things about me that are not true, based on my gender. In fact, I think it’s a perfectly normal thing to hope for.
Wow, I got red text! Must be because my intentions were so deeply nefarious.
Actually, I didn’t quote the whole thing because 1) I didn’t take notes during the video, and was using quotes other people posted to help me out, and 2) I don’t think it changes the meaning or implication nearly as much as you seem to.
I think it’s only a perception that more women are unhappy about men showing up for the relationship than the reverse, and not necessarily a perception that reflects reality. It is not the reality in my relationship, for instance.
This is so bizarre. In what universe are women better at listening to their bodies and their needs for food, rest, and playtime? I know an awful lot of guys who sleep till noon and play video games all day, every chance they get. And I know plenty of women who don’t take care of themselves, especially the working mothers of today like me who don’t have time to get enough sleep and always eat right.
Again, I don’t need to “reinterpret” this, as you’re suggesting. The mere idea that this is something women are supposed to be good at is coming out of left field as far as I’m concerned.
Again, I know plenty of women who are obsessed with their careers and don’t have time for relationships. How is this an inherently male quality? And how does the WHOLE SENTENCE change things, just because they’re putting it in the context of relationships? If anything, that makes it MORE insulting.
So the women who are imbalanced (like the one perhaps I’ve referenced above) have only been drawn into it against their better judgment? How weak-willed ARE these women?
I don’t know what this one means, so I don’t know how to address it.
It sounds so condescending, it makes me cringe.
Most people who hold outdated stereotypes don’t intend to be insulting. Does that mean we should allow them to spread those stereotypes just because they didn’t intend insult?
It’s not all about me, it’s about all womankind. I think better of women than to allow us to be labeled with tired and condescending stereotypes
I don’t get why it makes it better for the men to admit failure. OK, so they’re stating that they’re bad at things we’re good at, and vice versa. I don’t think that evens things out and makes it ok…all it means is that they’re stereotyping men, too.
Indeed. I’m too goal-oriented? Fuck that noise. If you meet me and talk with me and decide that I’m too goal-oriented, then whatever, tell me. But don’t put me in your little 1960s gender-box and think I’ll be happy with it.
When did I say I knew what they actually meant? I was sharing what my reaction to the video was. The creators of the video probably didn’t mean for their manifesto to be condescending, insulting, and cheesy - but, in my opinion, that is how it appears. I’m sorry that you object to me sharing my opinion, but that doesn’t make it invalid.
A good place to start is Graves, Robert. The White Goddess. Third edition amended and enlarged. London: Faber and Faber, 1952. It traces the earth goddess meme in western culture, but does it in such a way that leaves you prepared to observe where a lot of new age woo-woo has spread and mutated since then, leading us to the embarrassing display of Stoid’s video.
Mine was a rhetorical question but I thank you for the book suggestion anyway. I’m familiar with the work of Marija Gimbutas who wrote “The Goddesses and Gods of Old Europe” and “The Language of the Goddess” in the 70s and 80s respectively. Anyway, Gimbutas posited that Europeans were peaceful people that was woman centered before the big bad patriarchy arrived with the Kurgen invasion in what year I cannot remember…a long long time ago. Anyway, a lot of the goddess types are fans of Gimbutas.
I think the words just made Stoid feel good all over about herself and that’s all that she can comprehend. I think she’s easily manipulated and should be very careful about who she listens to since she only hears the words that she likes and ignores all the rest of the crap.
Overgeneralizations still suck when it comes to understanding complicated issues. As soon as you begin to believe there is “a” feminine (or masculine) perspective or agenda, or whatever, you pretty much reveal yourself to have checked your brains at the door, IMHO.
It is a FACT, that the video and written manifesto say:
[ul]
[li] As men, our preoccupation with goals and results often has burnt us out and made us unavailable for relationship.[/li][/ul]
And you MISREPRESENT (aka, claim you know that it actually meant) it as:
It is a FACT that the video and manifesto say:
[ul]
[li]I honor your deep connection to the earth.[/li][li]I honor your intuition[/li][li]**I commit to honoring the feminine in you and me **[/li][/ul]
and you MISREPRESENT IT (i.e.asserted it ACTUALLY MEANT) as:
You are obviously comfortable doing this, and you’ve defended it as acceptable - just own it already. You think it’s great, I think it blows. Different strokes and all that.
I’m afraid I’m going to have to stick up for perspectives here. I have no doubt that my perspective is shaped in part by race, class, and even gender here in the United States and I strongly suspect that yours is as well. Why? Because we are treated differently based on those criteria in many social situations. I wouldn’t argue that masculine and feminine perspectives are universal but I certainly think they do exist to some extent within the context of our society. I certainly don’t believe they’re universal truths though.
I don’t think he misrepresented it so much as he interpreted in a different manner. Quite frankly, I interpreted a lot of what was said in the manifesto being incredibly sexist. Women are so intuitive and in touch with their emotions unlike men who are analytical and rely on logic. That’s classic sexism right there. I really don’t understand how you don’t interpret it that way.
Really? I need a bunch of ugly white dudes to tell me anything? The dude with the upturned dreads was the best!
I’m actually amazed that anyone in the video was considered “hot.”
But, if you want to consider the oppression that white males have inflicted upon the societies of this planet…this is the best revenge!
BOW DOWN BEFORE MY EARTH MOTHER BROWNESS VAGINA POWER!!!
*(with your tepid little video that you sent your mom and little sister)
Is what they said sexist or not? Maybe yes, maybe no, depends, whatever.
If someone says women are X, does it follow that they are saying men are NOT X, and vice versa? Particularly when the text repeatedly refers, in various ways, to the idea that both sexes contain both masculine and feminine traits?
No.
I haven’t addressed #1 at all, I’ve been addressing #2.
As for the idea of the manifesto being sexist: depends on what you consider sexist. I don’t consider it sexist to recognize that men and women are different, because they are, from the minute they are born, as many progressive parents who were going to raise their children to be free of stereotypes learned when they gave their boys dolls and watched in dismay as they turned them into weapons and the girls turned the trucks into tea party tables.
Sexism is descrimination and prejudice based on sex. I think it’s sexist to mutilate women’s genitals, murder them in the name of honor, deny them opportunities because you assume they’ll bail to have kids, etc. I think it is sexist to scorn men for crying, deny them opportunities because they are men, and assume they are the lesser parent because they have penises.
Saying “I believe you, as a woman, have an intuitive nature/are closer to the earth/are more nurturing” is not sexist, because it is not prejudiced or discriminatory. Sexism is harmful. Assuming a woman has a more peaceful nature than a man is not harmful: you’ll know soon enough whether it was a correct assumption or not, and if you find out you’re wrong, you adjust.
I did not say that that was what they actually meant. I cannot read minds. I said I read it as a ridiculous generalization about gender roles. In fact, none of your examples are quotes where I said I had special insight into what these guys actually meant, I was just saying what my reactions to the video were (eg. boy, I’d hate for the guys in my workplace to start acting like such a bunch of pansies). As I’ve said repeatedly, I’m sorry if it offends you that my reaction is different than yours, but I’m not going to apologize for my opinion.
It is a fact that the manifesto includes those statements. Those statements themselves are not factual statements. Do you not understand the difference? If I made a video and said ‘the moon is made of blue cheese’, would that make it a fact? What if I sincerely believed it? It would be a fact that I said it, right? So that makes it a fact, right?
I am comfortable having my own opinion, yes. I think it is acceptable to watch or read something and decide what I think about it, yes. I do not feel driven to just agree with whatever is presented to me, no matter how fervently the people who present it believe it. I know you see this as misrepresentation, but I don’t see why it is. Why isn’t it ‘misrepresentation’ when you say ‘[the manifesto] is open, positive, embracing, and no matter how gooey or new agey or imperfect it may be, it’s coming from a very good place, and I respect the intention in it and the spirit in which it’s offered’? Why do you have magic insight into the intention and spirit of these people?
Hi, I’m Two Many Cats. You may know me from my threads about sexism in today’s society which usually get slammed as batshit insane among other things.
I’m just checking in to say that this video is the goddamned creepiest thing I’ve seen on YouTube, and I’ve seen The Cat with Hands, and all those others where scary faces jump out at you at the end.
This video is much, much worse. My feminine energy really wants to spray it with Raid.
I do too, absolutely, and I have in no way said you shouldn’t have your own opinion of what they said or that you shouldn’t express it.
There’s an enormous difference between: “They said that women have a natural connection to the earth. I think that’s crap. I hate that. I hate that anyone thinks that about women or about me. I’m offended by that! Fuck them”
and “They said I’m stupid and not good at math and don’t have any goals! Fuck them!”
The first is an opinion of what they really said.
The second is a made-up fantasy that has no real-world representation to support it, since none of the words they employed mean anything like that.
The first you are entitled to.
The second you are also entitled to, but it’s meaningless and has nothing to do with reality.
Excellent, I support that wholeheartedly!
Obviously.
I don’t because it’s not necessary. I simply understand the English language, the one we’re using. The words in it have meanings. I know what those meanings are individually, and when they are strung together into sentences, assuming the sentences are assembled in the normal manner that English sentences are strung together.
When someone says"I come to you today as a man committed to becoming more conscious in every way. I feel deep love, great respect and a growing sense of worship for the gifts of the feminine. "
and" I want to apologize to you and make amends"
and"I commit to owning and stewarding a masculinity that honors and celebrates us as equals."
and"I choose no longer to contribute to those forces, nor to be run by them in my own life. I offer you this apology in hopes that we can make a fresh start in a spirit of co-creation. "
and"I commit to listening to the intuitive sense you have of how to heal our planet and make it thrive."
and"I honor your capacity for peaceful resolution of conflicts, your ability to apologize effectively and forgive with grace."
and"I apologize for dragging you into these wars, and for the rape, murder, broken hearts and damaged families that resulted from them. We welcome your wisdom in creating a world that can get along without resorting to destruction."
and"I honor your sense of compassionate justice."
and"With your natural sense of nurturing and abundance, I know we can work together to create a truly caring global economics. "
and"I know that by leaving the past behind and joining hands in the present, we can create a synergy of our strengths. Together, there is nothing we cannot do. Together, we can make miracles. "
I comprehend all those words in those sentences! They do not need to be interpreted or translated in any manner whatsoever, because they are in English, they are structured correctly to form ideas and convey meanings, and those ideas and meanings are clear because the words are clear. And those words are very open, embracing, positive, and offered in a loving spirit, because that’s what those words, put together like that, actually mean. No interpetation required.
Of course, I do consider honor, respect, justice, compassion, love, healing, grace thriving, etc as positive things. I guess if you think those things suck, you would find them negative. But I’ve never met anyone who thinks those things suck, so I think it’s fair to say that my calling them positive is an accurate assessment of the intention behind them.