Indeed. Moreover, such talk often denies agency to the oppressed. In an imperfect world, often folks on the short end of the stick find amazing ways to twist things to their advantage, and that becomes a very interesting part of the narrative. But you miss it if all you talk about is what the bad guys did to the good guys.
Totally agreed.
Ha! Another clueless male. I was referring to MsWhatsis.
I’ll add that I think Left Hand of Dorkness and Freudian Slit makes good arguments and relevant points when critisising these dudes.
There’s no confusion on that point. It’s still a fallacy. And, I’d note, a fallacy based on group-stereotypes that have no relevance when dealing with individuals. Even if there are a hell of a lot of Kitten Juggling Wombat Lickers on this side of the pond, that has got fuck all to do with whether or not any American is allowed to object to an absurdity. The whole point of most people’s objections to this video is (beside the smarmy, sexist creeps in the video), it’s impossible for individuals to take responsibility for, speak for, or apologize for all of the members in their entire group.
In this case, objecting to the ideas/video/manifesto shows that one does not count themselves as part of the group. That means one is not a “conscious man”. That means that they’re part of their diametric opposition, the angry-brutish-men gang.
I mean, look at the manifesto itself:
[
](http://www.facebook.com/consciousmen)
Simply disagreeing with them proves that you “may be unable to apologize because [you] remain shackled in a prison of anger, fear and shame”. And those who are not “conscious” are, instead " angry, scared and in the grip of destructive forces in our psyche."
This smarmy nonsense isn’t just offensive to women, it’s offensive to men. ‘Positive Sexism’ isn’t any better than poorly intentioned sexism.
I accidentally skied over my thumb yesterday while skiing in the woods – ended up with a few stitches. Does all that blood mean that I too can post in red, or is it the wrong type of blood because male blood is killing blood whereas female blood is birthing blood?
No… disagreeing with them does not even by their reasoning prove their point. Only disagreeing with them in a way that would indicate you are “angry, scared and in the grip of destructive forces” would help “prove” their point.
Now we could rate the response on these scales:
Friendly - - - - - - - - - - - Angry
At ease - - - - - - - - - - - Scared
Constructive - - - - - - - - - Destructive
I would not describe the average response to be friendly, at ease and constructive. Nor do I think that the defining traits of the American Culture™* is Friendly, At ease and Constructive.
I watched that video and the whole thing just reminded me of William Murderface talking about defending women’s honor.
I would like them to be logical and goal oriented and able to make tough decisions that they rationally determine are for the best, AS WELL AS nurturing, intuitive, and peaceful. The fact that women are successful in all these roles means that they don’t embody only traditional, stereotypical feminine qualities, but share in all the human strengths.
I think stoid posting this is a form of trolling, much like her diet threads. She knows exactly what it will turn into.
No, she has other posts with the same wide-eyed wonderment at the amazingness of the human condition which others immediately pick apart as the BS that it is. I truly believe she is so swept away in emotion at her feelings being validated by whatever she selectively picks and chooses that she truly can’t understand why no one else sees the magical rightness of what she’s posting, even when bolding, italicized, enlarging and coloring all the pertinent parts to match her deep feelings.
By the way, Gary Taubes is great, despite Stoid’s posts. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I think Stoid posting this is, much like her diet threads and her lawsuit threads, a reflection of how she sees herself as a victim.
I can’t recall ever reading anything by Stoid before this so I only have her posts from this thread to go on. Judging by this thread only, Stoid seems reasonable, intellectually honest and friendly. As well as engaged, which sometimes (but rarely) expresses itself as an attempt at humor/sarcasm that could be interpreted negatively if you didn’t like her to begin with.
By contrast, much of her opposition has been… how should I put this. They haven’t struck me as the most civilized of people. Frankly, I’m surprised that people haven’t been asked by moderators to tone it down, drop the ad hominems etc.
Basically, from an outside perspective, Stoid looks good and a lot of people look like angry jerks.
Are you really going to make someone link to the definition of irony here?
Cool. The only problem is that I agree with you. And an even bigger problem is that so do the hippies.
But THEY think that the world right now is unbalanced. That traits like aggressiveness and greed are given too much space at the cost of empathy and nurturing. They think that society is built too much around (traditional) masculinity rather than a balance of masculinity and femininity. That there is a structural discrimination against women, for the same reason that there is one against homosexuals, blacks or atheists. Because they are breaking the norm that society is built on. The white, heterosexual, male persons norms. That not all white heterosexual males have the same norms doesn’t mean there isn’t a dominant norm.
I agree that it makes no rational sense to apologise for something one has had no influence over. But on the other hand, I don’t really care. For example I don’t think Germans born after 1930 should apologise for nazi war crimes, but I’m not going to be terribly upset if they did. Even though the implication would be that I should perhaps apologise for all the war crimes MY nation have committed, which I would flatly refuse to do.
But if that is something that will give some emotional relief for someone to say or hear, I don’t really mind. If it doesn’t hurt anyone, and gives comfort to someone I’m not going to be a hardass about it.
Look, I’m all for equality. But this is crazy. I don’t apologies “on behalf of our gender”, because I’m an individual. I have nothing to be sorry for.
Not only that, but if I were a woman, I would THINK I’d be offended that these yuppies talk about respect for things that generalize women, as if they are all the same.
Equality is a two-way street too. I would address people to keep both men and women’s interests in mind.
Saying that, as an adult I’ve learned about a lot about women who’ve been taken advantage of sexualy. It’s more than I would like to think. I’m not going to apologize on the predator’s behalf. But it’s something I would like to find a way to stop. It’s sad, and I wish I could do something about it. Too bad videos like this won’t help.
No, I am just going to note that your method of communication has absolutely zero to do with actually trying to understand something or be constructive. Basically, you’re not trying to fight ignorance, you’re just trying to fight.
I don’t feel this dialogue is constructive so I’ll bow out for now.
Actually, I think gender equality is the only thing that really WILL help on that issue. And even though these guys may be wrong about any amount of things, they did at least get people to talk about gender equality, which is a neccesary ingredient for change. If people don’t talk about it, it aint gonna happen.
It’s okay, you’re allowed to be wrong.
I’ve repeatedly pointed out the problems I see with the video and the manifesto, and used reasoned arguments to explain why. You’ve repeatedly responded with ad hominems and Internet Psychology.
I fully understand the problems I see with the manifesto/video, I don’t have to try to understand anything further. I also understand that you’re trying to serve up an apologia, and I’ve explained why I think you’re wrong. You seem to be adopting Stoid’s tactics of using personal attacks when you don’t like someone’s opinion.
Ah well.
I’m sorry you considered it a personal attack.
Do not accuse other posters of trolling outside The BBQ Pit.
[ /Moderating ]