Well, it seems like you don’t have to convince your mom that Orthodoxy is wrong (which, I agree with Dex, prob. isn’t going to happen)…you just have to convince her that your fiancee’s conversion is valid. I’m not Orthodox, so I can’t help you there, but does anyone know if there are any circumstances under which the Orthodox would consider a Conservative conversion valid?
Just about none. One of the absolute requirements for conversion (under Ortrhodox rules) is kabbalas ol mitzvos (accepting of the commandments). This is an all-or-nothing deal. One cannot convert to Judaism on condition that he doesn’t have to keep kashrus (or Shabbos, or Passover, or pick any other commandment).
In addition, there was a case a number of years ago whereby some Orthodox rabbis in Denver, working with Conservative and Reorm rabbis were performing conversions without these absolute minimum requirements. They were severely slapped down (figuratively, of course) for this. I don’t think it’s going to happen again anytime soon.
Zev Steinhardt
IANA:j , but I’ve been having a good time reading Friedman’s Who Wrote the Bible, which more accurately would be titled “Who Wrote the Torah?” and is quite accessible reading.
If you wish to pursue your intended course, perhaps a frontal assault on the Torah as a singular and contiguous source would be useful?
::goes back to studying the political infighting between the Aaronite priests and the priests of Shiloh during the reign of Solomon, and how their politics was borne out in the Book of P, Book of E, and Deuteronomy::
?? smilies have been discontinued ??
I happen to have been in a somewhat similar position to the poster when I got married. In my case, my wife’s parents were Orthodox, and I was the one converting. I converted Conservative. There was considerable consternation, to say the least, on the part of my parents-in-law, such that they didn’t speak to my wife for 4 years. But the reason wasn’t that I’d converted Conservative. It was because I had converted solely to marry their daughter.
After 4 years were up, they started talking to us again, and I’ve been fully accepted into the family. The legitimacy of the branch I converted has never been questioned in the 17 succeeding years.
So, I guess, my points are:
- If your mother wants there to be a problem, there’ll be a problem.
- The source of the problem will be her own reasoning, not the reasoning of Orthodox Judaism in general, whatever in the world that might be.
- Sooner or later the love of one’s child overrides these concerns.
- I’d suggest sweet-talking over debunking. Nobody likes to be debunked.
- Don’t start out your married life trying to fit your wife into a box you think your parents would want her in. You have no business letting your parents into your marriage, or in trying to make your wife over. If you start out that way, you’ll have a bad marriage.
Because he is on a secular board where everyone is allowed to have an opinion on everything.
As a Jew, I used to feel it would be terribly presumptous to tell internet Christians what their religion taught, so I kept silent through the most utter nonsense. However, it turns out that few (in my experience, none) of them object to such presumption, so why should we?
Zev, what Friar Ted said may or may not be right, but it is friendly to Judaism and probably closer to what most Jews believe than the position you have taken. Most Orthodox Jews I’ve known (OK, it has only been a few) clearly pick and choose, and usually believe that what they follow is more important than what they don’t. As for the non-Orthodox, is there any question?
Because he is on a secular board where everyone is allowed to have an opinion on everything.
As a Jew, I used to feel it would be terribly presumptous to tell internet Christians what their religion taught, so I kept silent through the most utter nonsense. However, it turns out that few (in my experience, none) of them object to such presumption, so why should we?
Zev, what Friar Ted said may or may not be right, but it is friendly to Judaism and probably closer to what most Jews believe than the position you have taken. Most Orthodox Jews I’ve known (OK, it has only been a few) clearly pick and choose, and usually believe that what they follow is more important than what they don’t. As for the non-Orthodox, is there any question?
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Becuase he didn’t say “In my opinion the minimum should be…” or “I feel the minimum should be…” He simply stated it as if he was legislating.
I may certainly be reading too much into it (and if so, then I’ll humbly apologize). However, as you’ve stated, I wouldn’t presume to tell Catholics how often to take the Eucharist (did I spell that right?) or a Muslim how to pray and what prayers to utter.
I’m not denying FriarTed’s right to an opinion. I’m simply objecting to his statement as fact.
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I’ll go one step further. The vast majority of Jews don’t keep kosher at all. Should we then throw that out as a minimum requirement for conversion? Are we going to define Judaism down to “whatever the majority does?” If so, then let’s toss kashrus, Shabbos, all the holidays except Yom Kippur, Passover and Channukah out as well. What if a majority of Jews profess to be athiests? Do we then toss out belief in God as a “minimum requirenent?” At what point do you draw the line?
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Please cite an example of an Orthodox Jew “picking and choosing” from among the mitzvos.
Zev Steinhardt
Zev, perhaps you can clarify for me, but doesn’t “Modern Orthodox” do just that? For my example I’d look at Lieberman who doesn’t wear a kippa. And my Bubby was Orthodox, but made lots of personal exceptions.
No, they don’t. People who are Modern Orthodox keep all 613 mitzvos.
Please keep in mind that wearing a kippa is not a commandment but a custom (albeit a very strong one). However, it was very common up until about twenty years ago for Orthodox Jews to remove their kippas at work and in other professional settings. That has changed lately due to increased tolerance of Jews in the workplace, but there are many “old-timers” who still do remove their kippot at work.
I don’t know about your Bubby. Of course no one is perfect and everyone has their own issues and does wrong from time to time. But I took SteveEisenberg’s statement to mean that there are Orthodox Jews who purposely only keep certain commandments and will claim that the others are not binding.
What “exceptions” did your Bubby make?
Zev Steinhardt
Well, I am neither a Jew nor Ann Landers but I read her enough to think I can safely say she, a person who WAS a Jew but only PRETENDED to be Ann Landers, would say this marriage is in trouble if Prufrock does not tell Mumsy, in a most kind and loving way, that this is the woman he plans to spend his life with and if Mumsy wants to EVER see her grandchildren she should shut the f*ck up and accept Prufrock’s fiancee whether she is Orthodox enough for Zev, is Christian, or is a total atheist. The Creationism stuff pales in importance.
Oh, like non-Kosher eating in our house, even though she kept seperate plates at her home.
considering that I’m in no position to legislate anything Judaic (else the name would be RebbeTed G) I thought it was obvious that my post was IMO. Anyway, all 613 commands cannot be kept without a Temple & a priesthood in operation, so there has to be some necessary picking & choosing. Anyway, what aspects of the possible commands did my summary neglect (other than the cutting of hair & nails & the mikvah bath)?
Concerning proofs: you might give your mother a book about Sir Karl Popper…
Nevertheless, your conversion wouldn’t have impact on future grandchildren as the OP’s girlfriend’s conversion will. If her conversion is not accepted as kosher, their kids aren’t going to be Jews.
I’m curious about the girlfriend and this conversion. If she’s a true convert – which I’m of the understanding is rather demanded in rigorous conversions to Judaism given the three turn down thing – then shouldn’t she be choosing her own conversion director and path to follow? That doesn’t seem like something which would be open to discussion, unless it was being entered into for less than spiritual reasons.
Well, that defeated the entire purpose of having separate dishes! The point of having meat and milk dishes is because they would become non-kosher if used for both. But if she was using them for non-kosher food anyway…
In any event, if your grandmother was eating non-kosher food on a regular basis, I would venture to say that she is not Orthodox (despite whatever she calls herself).
Zev Steinhardt
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It’s not a matter of picking and choosing; it’s a matter of the fact that certain laws are only applicable under certain conditions. For example, I can never perform the commandment of the levirate marriage simply because I don’t have a brother. Does that mean I’ve neglected the commandment because I don’t have a brother? Of course not. It’s just that in my circumstance, the commandment doesn’t apply to me. The same reasoning applies to all the commandments that surrounded the Temple and it’s rituals.
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The big one – kabbalas ol mitzvos (accpeting the commandments). As I’ve said earlier, one cannot become a convert on condition that s/he doesn’t have to observe any particular mitzvah or set of mitzvos. It’s an all or nothing deal.
Zev Steinhardt
If I am understanding this correctly (and I think I am, as we have discussed Prufrock’s impending marriage before), Zev is talking about conversion being an all-or-nothing proposition.
People who are born Jewish can pick and choose, I suppose. I know several who do, who are not Orthodox (the word itself should be explanation enough, yes?). But conversion is a much more serious matter, and is not to be entered into lightly, and for sure not as a marriage convenience. For the love of Pete, I’m not Jewish and I can see that! I admire a religion that requires a great deal of it’s members by conversion.
But Prufrock has already said in this and other threads that he doesn’t want us debating the merits of his girlfriend’s conversion. So I think CK Dexter Haven handled the debunking part very well.
Not without being sinners, they can’t.
The point is that being Jewish means having certain obligations. Those of us whose parents/grandparents/ancestors accepted those obligations are bound by them; the choice was already made for us. Whether or not we currently observe them is irrelevant to whether or not we have the obligations in the first place, i.e., whether or not we are Jewish.
Those whose parents did not accept them would need to accept them in order to be Jewish. If they do not accept the obligations of a Jew, they are not Jews.
True…though I’d take issue with the “much more serious” thing. Being Jewish is just as serious as becoming Jewish.
Being raised Conservative, I just want to say how cool it is that the Orthodox (and cmkeller in particular) seem to have defined all of Reform Judaism out of the religion. 
Prufrock, would your mother be satisfied not with a debunking, but with enough evidence to make her admit that it is possible for a reasonable person to think that the Torah might not be totally true?
That would seem an easier standard, and not be asking her to even examine her beliefs.
BTW, in five years of Hebrew school and attendance at innumerable services, I never heard anyone in my temple say that evolution was wrong. I think most of my class would have walked out en masse if they had.