For the record when I use the term “champion for good” I am referring to **any **Town player. (trying to play with the colour nothing else)
:smack:
Well, rats. I’m sorry to learn that Silver Jan was a goodie after all, and regret my part in having voted for her. I do think she played wildly and anti-Townesque, but apparently the canard “methinks she doth protest too much” someimes ain’t true. Sometimes you protest too damn much because you’re actually innocent. Who knew? 
It’s also educational in another way. Clearly I misunderstood the theme of the game; it seems that the only D&D references are XP and levelling? Because if a Mage has no powers, that says to me that the standard roleplaying classes aren’t relevant at all.
The septimus thing at the end of the day kinda bothered me. I noticed that though there were six votes on the guy, they only came from three people, each voting twice. (In contrast, Silver Jan’s six votes – prior to the last-minute septimus self-preserving flip – came from six of us.) Two of the septimus voters came from the (IMHO) closely aligned pals pizza and Normal. So they think alike and are similarly very, very certain of septimus’s evilosity. And the third pair of votes came from special ed, who’s another of the most chatty members of the game. They’re all very experienced and seem to know what they’re talking about, so now I’m finding myself being swayed by their certainty.
OTOH… I just don’t get why septimus is pinging them as evil, especially for the last-minute votes on Silver Jan. Wouldn’t it be normal for a townie to try to save yourself? If the same thing happened to me, feeling unjustly ganged upon, I would probably have voted strategically too. The fact that it was at the literal last minute seems smart, not suspicious. No? Are we supposed to sacrifice ourselves for someone we think may be guilty? (This assumes, of course, septimus genuinely thought Silver Jan was scum. If he genuinely thought her a fellow townie, then I think a self-sacrifice should’ve been in order.)
Anyway, I’m just talking things through. As far as Suburban Plankton’s comments to pizza, I agree with them 100% and that’s exactly what I said to him yesterDay. If you’re really one of us, then stop distracting us by putting a huge-ass bullseye on your back! There’s a difference between self-sacrificing as mentioned above and actually being anti-Town by putting yourself in the spotlight and letting us waste time on you when we should be scumhunting the real scum!
Heh. You can say that to Pizza as much as you like and he won’t listen. He loves the spotlight.
I’m fairly confident that Septimus is scum. Voting at the very last second is scummy – anti-town, if you will – because you’ve left no one any room to contest it. Townies should want to leave at least a little room – somebody pushes you back into the lead and you die and are town, then there’s really something to look at the next day. This way, the only thing that will be looked at is you. He’s also left himself wide open for a vig. What good does that do anyone, if he is town?
d voted with some space left before the end of the day. Septimus, even if some sort of town power role watching anxiously and inexplicably silent all that time (why did he say nothing for the last part of the Day despite clearly being present and accounted for, if town?) in case he was lynched, had the option to respond promptly to Ed’s move. He chose not to. He deliberately chose to allow no one a chance to respond in any way to what he did until it was too late. Town does “anti-town” stuff every day and twice on Sunday (which is why it is such a bad idea to vote on that basis) but this takes the cake and crosses the line so far he might as well be in the next county.
I’ll be shocked and unhappy if he is town. I’ll be a little surprised if he’s a PFK (since it wouldn’t gain him much for long). I expect him to be scum. (I’ll still have a drink with him if he turns up. Margarita, Septimus?)
It’s funny, when I changed my second vote to him I very nearly decided not to, on the same “democratic” principle you just commented on. I suppose it’ll all come out in the results what was the right choice. (But this power of the double vote should be kept in mind in future lynches – if the main suspects have not yet locked in, beware of what they can do to save themselves.)
About ATPG’s voting style – I really could have said this at the time, but I didn’t have the town cred to do it (and a part of me was enjoying the spectacle, I’ll admit). I think I might, now (just watch Septimus be town after all), so what the heck. At teh other site where ATPG and I play, justifying your vote is somewhat … optional. Not entirely so – you run a high risk of lynch if you’re lazy enough for long enough. But somewhat. In practice that means if you want to hunt scum you have to learn to go on some VERY small tells, flog the hell out of them, and get people to notice (whether the vote goes your way anytime soon or not). What ATPG did as regards Septimus is perfectly within expectations for him (and for that site in general). Of course no one here could know that, so presuming scum-Septimus it could get interesting in future trying to disentangle the truly outraged shouts of “that’s not a case!” from the ones with some sort of wariness and consternation behind them.
(And speaking for me personally here, after a bit of practice at it you sort of get to prefer the simple cases based on the subtle stuff. I think it’s actually more reliable. Experienced scum can fake normal vote records, they can keep their participation up where it should be, they can avoid a lot of the things that generally set townies off. But it’s a lot harder to fake an emotional state; it’s a lot harder to disguise careful calculation as typically-townie spontaneity. Almost all of my cases these days have this sort of stuff at their root (if I’m given anything to work with at all), even if I do still dress it all up in as much logic as I can muster, to conform to local norms.)
I can buy that as a valid reason, in fact, while I was confusing your name with ShadowFacts’ I felt that was probably your better move as townie, besides a good refutation of it. Not the best, but fair.
That said, it doesn’t help ME any because I’ll still pick on you as you’ve left me…
sniff, sniff 
empty and unsatisfied.
I was putting my money on Septimus, because his behavior caused a visceral reaction in me to “kill it”. I wasn’t thinking too hard about strategy at the moment, I’ll admit. I was doing what I often do which is follow my instincts against someone I found to be ungenuine.
Yes, tactically, it was a stupid move for me. That said, we had quite a lively discussion about it and lots of people are on record with reactions, flip-flops, votes, and other analysis-worthy behavior.
No, that’s a dodge. That’s clearly a dodge. You displayed argument from popularity, a particularly integrity-free line of attack, and argued in a particularly slimy way that my death would be good regardless, encouraging people to leave me for dead.
I can agree with some of your other points, but it will be a cold day in hell before I let that pass.
I don’t particularly care; playing the game “straight” will get townies to vote for me as well.
Look at the other players. Others have gotten votes on them as well. They didn’t play in a way specifically designed to be bait, so far as I know.
You guys keep bringing this up like it’s the worst strategy ever because SOME townies WILL vote for me. How’s that any different from the way YOU play, at the end of the day? Some townies going to vote for you, too!
Gotcha. It’s not any different, results-wise. But you still seem to like to complain about it.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I have a different tactic. You know how in chess, the basic main strategy is to control the center? Well there’s a whole other school of thought which says let your opponent control the center and then attack it from the wings. It’s a radical but not-at-all new concept. And grandmasters use that strategy. And it wins games, too.
You know, if the end result is the same as your style, just different, and it gets results, then it is… a valid strategy.
You don’t like it because it is different. And that’s the naked truth, and you know it. That’s not a valid reason why I shouldn’t do it, and until you come up with one, I say good night to this entire line of attack against me, because it is bovine excrement.
Players who get emotional have weaker poker faces and are easier to read. Emotions are harder to fake, especially in text where the only way you can convey them is with words. Then it all becomes about the choice of word and the context involved.
It’s another reason why when I analyze people I check their emotional state that I can feel through the text, especially with regards to humor. Humor is notoriously difficult to pull off when it comes from a place of lies, because if you don’t honestly believe what you’re saying, you won’t believe it is funny, and it won’t be funny. It will seem off.
Yeah it has. I was the vote leader or close to it for most of the round. I got votes yesterday too.
People are less likely to listen to the new member of their group anyway. Or the quiet person who rarely posts. I’ve gotten lots of reactions not just against me but in response to my points. Clearly some people are reading my posts.
I’ll take my chances. This is better than lurking or not making any waves.
In your opinion. You’d be qualified to make such an assessment IF you knew who all the Lords of Slaughter were.
You cannot seriously think you’re aware of what real impact I’ve had on the game yet, unless you hold all the cards. So far, I’ve argued against two townies’ deaths who were my lynch rivals, and pointed to someone who just exhibited truly odd behavior. I’ve also got people ALREADY examining reactions to the way I play.
And I’m sorry to bring this up, since it’s going to be painted negatively, but do you truly believe I’ve never heard any of this stuff before?
Almost 90 games in one forum alone, dozens more in two additional forums. Hundreds of players, I’ve interacted with, close to a thousand. I’ve seen every conceivable reaction to Askthepizzaguy. I’ve had fair results in spite of all that. I’m not that worried. You honestly shouldn’t be either. I feel your criticism now is coming from a dishonest place, because I feel if you’ve thought about what you’re saying, there should be a rational part of your brain that goes “hmm, that may not be entirely valid”.
Think about it some more.
That would be true if all I ever did was crack jokes, vote for myself, or insult people. My style is different and it will cause bad reactions in some. It’s not game-ending and so far, the folks who have caused the most damage to the town are the ones actually behaving scummily.
It takes some chutzpah to call someone anti-town when they’ve been pointing fingers, giving reasons, and analyzing vote leaders. Especially when I can point out a dozen reasons why the source of this criticism has sloppy at best, anti-town at worst reasons for what they’re doing.
You have made some valid points here, but you’ve also made some really bad ones. My criticism of you stands.
Honestly, “master plan”?
Is taking a risk with a NPC’s life by acting slightly as bait while also pointing fingers at scumbags and giving reasons why people are and are not scummy, this is somehow a master plan?
This is still part of the agreed upon narrative I’ve faced as a reaction to how I play.
Let me eviscerate this nonsense as well.
What I’ve done is so basic and straightforward a strategy that you should really be ashamed to call it something complicated. That’s ingenuine. I’ve displayed behavior which in my experience results in classic “gotcha” reactions from people who are looking for “gotcha” moments from townies. They aren’t looking to make strong cases on real scumbags, they’re looking to find the loudest, most aggressive townie, and drop what appears to be a thoughtful, logical case on said townie. Whether they accept or decline the gambit, I’ve now got them on record with a reaction of “positive” “negative” or “avoiding”. This stuff is useful in the long run.
It’s the chess equivalent of a gambitted pawn. To call that a master plan is ludicrous.
Let’s get real and drop that narrative starting now, please. Or at least come up with a narrative that makes sense and isn’t extremely simple for me to break apart.
In summary, what you call anti-town hasn’t been demonstrably different, results-wise, from your so called pro-town brethren. Several others have gained more votes from me playing it straight. And, I managed to get my suspect nearly lynched.
You call it anti-town but in reality, it is just different and you don’t like it. That’s not rational criticism. It’s again, all about popularity.
That’s bad reasoning and bad play.
Further, you keep feeding into an agreed-upon narrative which is superficial, weak, and demonstrably wrong. You also have displayed some rather scummy indicators when you
- Made a post which was essentially an argument for my death but you didn’t back it up with votes
- That argument was “he’s probably townie but needs to die because he’s different”.
- Made no attempt to decide the lynch with your two votes. That indicates that you’re distancing yourself from the results of what happens.
You’re making bad arguments and avoiding blame. I can’t call that especially townie behavior, let alone pro-town behavior.
In the final analysis, you’re worse than any argument you can level against me, and I’ve just shown why.
raises hand
When it comes to lynching, unless the player has an anti-lynch power (and then clearly not an NPC) the player’s probably going to die regardless of class.
I would not go so far as to draw the above conclusion. I personally don’t know what is going on with the PC roles.
This is an interesting observation.
What conclusions can you draw from it?
Normal acts too much like me and it is hard for me to criticize her play style as such. She will be in my blind spot when it comes to making accusations. She’s got to do something out of character or something which slaps me in the face as wrong, or enough time has to go by and I have to wonder why she’s still alive, before I start hurling serious accusations at her.
- Timing
- Lack of elaboration
- Context
Voters who wait until the very last minute to change their vote have demonstrated that they do not want anyone else to have time to react to their move. That means they’ve planned it in advance, kept it from us, and did it specifically to single-handedly overturn the lynch without reply.
That means there is necessarily deception involved. It is not the same as a last hour switch or a last 30 minutes switch. There’s still time to debate, not much, and discuss… and react.
That’s dishonesty.
Lack of elaboration means he changed the vote, and left without going into further reasoning for what he’s done. This again leads me to believe he’s hiding something.
The context. This is a game where many of those votes on septimus came earlier in the round. This is a game with long day phases. Septimus was NOT caught off-guard by these votes. He had a plan to reverse the wagon himself and he did.
And that tells me if he’s guilty that his partners were in on that plan. They were also hanging out near the deadline to change the outcome if desired. Preferably with their votes available (on folks not close to lynching), which tells me further that those folks didn’t care about who died, and possibly were still interested in if Septimus saved himself.
In general, there were several indicators of not-townie reactions both from Septimus and those observing the play. It was damning.
I disagree… Jan claimed NPC and was foundering under heavy suspicion. She was a fair lynch just to get people off of her and onto better targets.
Self-sacrifice is not a great idea, it’s a last resort in dire circumstances.
I also think if septimus genuinely thought Jan was scum he should have locked in his votes on her earlier, made up his mind. He wasn’t playing to lynch scums, he was playing to save self.
If you’re really one of us, get used to a different and also valid play style.
I’d like to point out here that I could post nothing but smiley faces, and none of that has any impact on what you decide to do with your posts and your votes.
Stop scapegoating and stop blaming others. If my behavior thus far has caused a “I can’t play unless that guy is dead” response, then I’d suggest that the weakness here is on your part, not mine.
It’s easy when several people have a similar reaction to believe that their numbers advantage makes them correct. As mafia itself demonstrates, that’s NOT the case.
Before I accept that I must change for you, you must examine your criticism of me and see why I think it’s wrong, and give a solid rebuttal.
I’d be willing to toss you a favor if I thought you were really thinking critically and rationally and fairly. Until then, it’s not all that different from bullying others into getting your way, and my life experience (not just mafia experience) has taught me to never give in to such.
- No, that’s not correct at all. If I wanted you dead, I would have said so, an I would have voted for you. What I did was point out behavior which I felt was not in the best interest of the Town.
- That argument was “Your behavior is distracting and liable to cause emotional reactions in other players, neither of which are pro-Town.”
- This is incorrect on a couple levels. First, one of my votes was on Silver Jan, so it did directly help to “decide the lynch”. Second, it is not necessary for a vote to “attempt to decide the lynch” in order for it to be a ‘good vote’. I place my votes on people I think are likely to be Scum. Sometimes I share the majority view, and sometimes I don’t.
I would like to know what it is that I am avoiding blame for. What is it that you think I have done for which I should be blamed?
Your post was not a “let me help you fit in” post.
It was clearly, and everyone can see this, clearly an argument for why people should just throw in the towel and let me die.
You should probably drop this, it’s not helping you at all.
I’d agree it was distracting if I were posting in lots and lots of bold, underline, and in larger font text, with lots of different colors.
I’d also agree that causing emotional reactions in other players was bad if, and only if, only townies had emotional reactions.
It’s now 5pm and I must run to work, but before I respond further, let me just say that it’s debatable. You had one of your votes on a candidate, but my point was you didn’t use your votes to decide the lynch.
Being able to move your other active vote is similar to not voting for either lead candidate in a one-vote game. The dynamics are quite similar.
That’s all. I only ever write in a first draft and I often need to clarify what I say, but there’s meat to what I’m saying.
Thanks, this is a helpful post. I see your point on septimus’s behavior, and why it wasn’t helpful. I need to take another look at the timing aspect – I thought the tie between septimus and Silver Jan (dang, there really are a lot of “s” usernames in this thread to keep straight!) occured very late in the day, which would’ve left septimus no other time really to state his case/raise a defense/vote for himself.
Actually I have to admit something. When I last looked at the thread, which was at around ten minutes till Nightfall, the vote count was septimus 7, Silver Jan 6. I went through a crisis of conscience at that point. I thought I could have unvoted you (Normal) and thrown my second vote to Silver Jan, resulting in a tie, which I (erroneously) thought meant Jan would swing. (I realize now that that actually septiumus would have been the first to reach the higher vote count.)
Anyway, I was staring at the thread, going back and forth on what I should do. I wasn’t 100% certain about Silver Jan, but I did think she leaned scum – obviously, or I wouldn’t have voted her. Yet I was too afraid to place (what I thought was) the deciding vote, and also knew that everyone would blame me for the last minute decision. Plus, I really wasn’t 100% certain on septimus either.
AND to be honest, I’m not thrilled by the double-vote mechanic… it does feel undemocratic to me for someone to be lynched because one person voted for them twice. I guess that’s a silly notion since everyone has the same two votes to place. Plus, it’s legal and fully kosher in the game, so why does it matter whether it’s undemocratic?
So I just sat there and watched the seconds tick by, worrying that septimus (who I thought leaned town) was about to die. (My sister can attest to how ridiculously Hamletty I got, she listened to my angst.)
Yes, folks, this is the neurotic mess you’ve let into your game. 
Anyway, when septimus made his double-vote, I was thrilled 'cause it voided my need to make a decision.
Still… your comments do make sense and I can understand how his behavior could be seen as anti-town. I’m still not sure it’s something I wouldn’t have done, mindlessly thinking that it was smart strategy that would keep me from swinging. (Especially if one hypothetically has a town power role – note, I have no idea of septimus does or doesn’t, of course – and figured he was more important in the long-run than Silver Jan’s self-claimed vanilla.) But I do see now that it did somewhat usurp the process.
BTW, I take it the “d” in that second paragraph is special ed? 
Bolding mine. No, everyone can’t. Sorry. I do understand that you have a different style of play and revel in it, and that you think I’m scapegoating you by focusing on you (despite the fact that it’s so obviously what you freakin’ want us to do that you’re doing everything but dancing a jig in a hat with big neon letters “LOOK AT ME, VOTE FOR ME, DISCUSS ME TO DEATH!”). But even granting that this is innocent, perfectly valid Townie behavior and you have an amazingly crafty reason for doing this that those of us benighted saps playing on the SDMB rather than your own hardcore Mafia home turf cannot possibly comprehend your Kasparov-like strategic thought processes – yes, I grant you all of this – that doesn’t flipping mean that Suburban Plankton was calling for your lynching.
Got it? You do not speak for everyone.
(That said, Suburban Plankton could be guilty as sin. I just don’t see him trying to rally others to lynch you.)
Whew.
I dunno. This post reeks of talking out of both sides of your mouth. We lynch pizza and he’s town, well, gee guys, I told you he was, too bad he just couldn’t help from making himself a target. We lynch pizza and he’s scum, well whaddaya know, he was trying to play us, tsk tsk, how sad. I don’t have any trouble believing this was a backhanded attempt to get people to vote pizzaguy.
I’m a bit disturbed by all the last minute voting, and Septimus’s timing being held against him. I’m pretty sure he said he was in Thailand. I’m not sure what the time zone is there, but I think Day’s End was early in the morning. It was at 9 a.m. for me and I am in Australia, a few hours ahead. I always wake up to a bunch of stuff having happened. What if he just woke up?
Then he would have said, whoa, I just woke up. The fact that there was absolute nothing in his post but the votes, it’s clear that he sat on it until the very last second. It’s vote manipulation and it’s scummy, scummy, scummy. Also, if he had just woken up, there would have been a more hurried sense to it, as he’s desperately trying to make the deadline. His post is calm and concise and it’s clear he wrote it and sat on it.
hi all. my dad just had a kidney transplant today. it was quite sudden. he had to have it hours after a match was found. i won’t be around much and not mentally focused for the next couple of days.
holy crap, that’s totally understandable.
I hope your dad has a speedy recovery.
Here’s to a long long lasting transplant!!
gnarlycharlie, Here is hoping for the best for your father, Remember, you have lots of resources at the Dope if you have any questions, including a recently minted pharmacist(i.e. Me). If you have any questions, feel free to ask, us Dopers are an educated lot, and we would be happy to help in any way possible.
Best wishes to you and your father.
Would you like to put some more words in my mouth and paint me with an even bigger jerk brush before we continue? I’d prefer if you get it all out so I don’t have to listen to such biting, sarcastic, spittle-filled words when I’m just discussing a game on a forum.
When you’re ready, here it is again:
Here it comes. Ready?
Reasons I should be lynched.
More arguments in favor of my death. Can we trust him, is he WIFOM’ing us?
Essentially, I’m not going to vote for him, but I wouldn’t bat an eye if someone else does.
Essentially, if you let him live, you are approving of what he does.
Essentially, no matter what he flips as, don’t look at reasons why people voted him.
No, he’s not calling for my lynching, he’s just saying:
- There are lots of reasons to lynch him
- Lots more reasons to lynch him
- You can’t trust him
- I’m not voting for him, but I’d sure understand if others did
- If you don’t lynch him, you approve of what he’s doing
No, what he’s doing is even scummier than just calling for my lynching. He’s doing it while washing his hands of the matter.
I was inclined to end this post with a similar snapping response, but what’s the point. You’re not going to listen, and you’ve already formed your opinion of me. What a big fat jerk I am.
OOC:
[SPOILER]Just so you guys know, I’m not offended by accusations that I’m scum, based on cases or no cases. I’m not offended by votes to make me die because I’m annoying or too talkative or distracting. I’m not offended when people don’t think much of my play style. I’m not offended by any relevant criticism about the way I post or the errors I make or… anything, really.
Probably the only thing that will burn by butt is when folks insist on painting a caricature of me as something I’m not. When have I once ever said my style was better, smarter, or *superior *in any way? When have I ever said that my *experience *on other forums meant that your opinions or experience meant nothing to me? When, exactly, did I suggest that you guys on this forum needed my advice and were lost without it? I even pointed out that someone else who compared track records with me did better than me and I was impressed. I also said how hard it was to win as townie and how anything approaching winning half the time was amazing. I’ve also not said anything negative about anyone here (I’ve even had lots of positive things to say) beyond how scummy they were behaving or that I felt their play was anti-town, especially after such accusations were leveled at me.
I admit I rub people the wrong way, but I am not being a jerk to any of you. Please don’t paint me as such. Please don’t put words in my mouth that suggest I’ve come here to put any of you down or look down on any of you. That’s unnecessary. I’ll have a hard enough time fitting in without folks suggesting that I’m here to be snotty towards the members of this forum, when I haven’t done such a thing. There’s a difference between confidence and putting others down; there’s a difference between being different and saying one’s ideas are valid, and being arrogant and saying one’s ideas are the best and others ideas are stupid.
I haven’t done what it’s being suggested I’m doing. Disagree with my play style, fine; don’t want to make friends, okay. Don’t turn me into something I am not.
Thank you.
Please don’t respond to this post, I want to discuss the game, not this. If this doesn’t bury the hatchet and help us move forward, please just ignore me. I don’t want to argue about it.[/SPOILER]
Let’s get back to the game.
Sorry if I shocked or offended with my last-minute vote, but it seemed very clear to me that it was correct. Had Silver Jan flipped Scum, I’d have been a hero.
She wasn’t Scum; so we traded one misLynch for another. But in that case, I think we were heading for two MisLynches anyway and the only difference is the order. Assuming I’m killed real soon, this may actually be a good thing. With these misLynches out of the way, Town can focus on finding real Scum.
I seem to be misunderstood in all the Mafia games I play. This is also true of me in Real Life; one reason I play Mafia is a (vain?) effort to improve my communication … but I should have started several decades ago. :smack:
I have more to explain, but will wait until toMorrow, if I’m still alive.
Ms. Phase, I’m delighted to take you up on your offer of a Margerita. Please ask the waiter to bring a whole bottle of tequila.
Cheers, Septimus! A whole bottle it is.
So why’d you post at 1 minute-to-deadline, instead of, you know, right after Special Ed’s vote change?