Democrat Blasted for Remark on Revolution

Let’s give equal time to compensate for the well deserved pitting of Republican Georgia Senator Don Thomas. Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-Ohio) told the Toledo Blade:

Note that this was an interview she gave her local newspaper, not an off-the-cuff, thoughtless comment. She really believes this.

Of course, her comparison of the Green Mountain Boys to fundamentalist, Islamic terrorists is insulting and ignorant. Note that the Bin Laden cannot be regarded as any sort of “freedom fighter,” because he is not fighting for freedom. He’s fighting for religious tyranny – a theocracy. And, he’s fighting to kill Christians and Jews.

In addition, her blithe assumption that the US might seize the land in Iraq is a way of calling the President a liar, since he has repeated affirmed that this is not his purpose. Since it has no basis, her assumption shows stupendous ignorance or anti-American bias or something. Yet, Ms. Kaptur has the power to help create our laws.

Can’t we remove from public service Marcy Kaptur, Senator Patty Murray (who made somewhat similar comments), and Don Thomas as a package deal?

Aye, I agree with you december . She’s clearly an ignorant person.

I don’t remember the tales of the Green Mountain Boys killing mass amounts of British civilians who had nothing to do with the war.

What the. . .?
She says that, with a little empathy, you can see where this religious fanaticism comes from and where it could possibly end up and she’s as stupid as the guy( a doctor, no less) you says you can’t get pregnant if you are raped.

You know december, you should read closely what Rep. Kaptur said. Blind and unthinking faith (in a religion or a political dogma) leads to some pretty fucked up shit.

Hear, hear, Biggirl. What is up with every analogy having to be a direct comparison? Ethan Allen and Osama Bin Laden share the trait that neither one was recognized by their opponent (England and the United States, respectively) as having legitimate standing to prosecute a war. Bin Laden’s indefensible tactics do not change this.

Based on this shared trait alone, Representative Kaptur’s remarks have some validity.

The Green Mountain Boys were set up to fight New Yorkers more than the British, and the terrorism was much smaller scale than Bin Laden’s, of course…it was more the flogging and beating of New Yorkers and the burning down of their homes.

But, Kaptor’s right. People join groups like Al-Qaeda because they feel powerless, and they do it because they have a vision of the way the world should be.

I don’t really see what she said that was so offensive.

No, december is right, as usual!

Cultural relativism is evil, especially if you want to avoid understanding why other people behave the way they do.

I mean, how can december possibly follow his personal deity, GOP, if he tried to eradicate his ignorance of the motives of people he doesn’t understand? GOP says ‘they hate our freedom’ and that must be all there is to it, because GOP says it. To question this would be sacriledge!

I suppose Begin was never a terrorist either?

Widespread terrorism and murder happened all over the Revolution. You don’t think all those people fled to Canada just to avoid the July 4 holiday, do you? They were horribly oppressed and victimized.

That said, let’s deconstruct Rep. Kaptur’s comments:

Interpreting this literally, you can honestly say it’s true. The Green Mountain Boys did, in fact, use violence to terrorize civilians. They adopted terrorist tactics. That’s “Similar” to al-Qaida. There are also very big differences, but there are certainly similarities.

This is literally true, is it not? An Islamic fundamentalist tends to believe Islam, and only Islam, will make life better. They aren’t fighting to make life worse in their eyes. They really do believe they’re going to make the world a better place. Hitler thought he was going to make a world a better place. Stalin did, too. That’s the problem with these people.

Obviously, this is literally true.

Well, this is also literally true, is it not. IF the USA were to do this, it wouldnt solve the underlying problems. Installing a democratic governement might help to do so.

And of course the USA is going to seize the land… that’s what war is. They may not be planning to KEEP it, but I think it’s clear they’re going to SEIZE it. In the Army, I was taught that that is the first job of combat arms: “to seize and hold ground.”

Biggirl, kaylasdad99, Captain Amazing, I learned in American History to associate the Founding Fathers with the most basic political values. Democracy. A free country. Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Religion. Freedom of the Press. Tolerance. Fair trials. Due process. Prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment.

Osama bin Laden stands for the opposite of these values. In addition, he is the sworn enemy of the United States. Comparing him with American patriots who happened to be religious is inappropriate and disgusting.

Biggirl, wouldn’t you have been upset if Ms. Kaptur had drawn a comparison between OBL and Martin Luther King? After all, King was also deeply religious.

BTW it’s just baloney to claim that, “People join groups like Al-Qaeda because they feel powerless, and they do it because they have a vision of the way the world should be.” I do not believe that anyone on this Panel really knows why people join al Qaeda, nor does Ms. Kaptur.

Do you believe that you know?

What is the basis of your assertation, therefore, that this assessment of reasons for joining “groups like Al-Qaeda” is incorrect?

And what is the basis of your comparison of the subject of the OP to “the guy( a doctor, no less) you says you can’t get pregnant if you are raped.” (posted by Biggirl)? What similiarities do they have, other than your belief that their words are insulting and ignorant?

One could say that anti-abortion crusaders who kill abortion doctors are like EMTs, because they’re both trying to save lives.

One could say that, but overall it’s a terrible and (IMHO) false analogy. I especially like her use of “one could” instead of saying “I would” so that she can weasel out of claiming that’s her belief.

It’s a shame you didn’t learn that it was never as simple as that.

Well, but Kaptor wasn’t comparing what Bin Laden is fighting for with what Ethan Allen fought for, or the morality of their causes. She just said that in both cases, they fought atypically. The Green Mountain Boys WERE guerillas…that’s a fact. They, for the most part, relied on surprise and terror to achieve their goals. The fact that the two groups are similar in that way doesn’t mean that they are identical, and just because you (and I) agree with the goals of the Green Mountain Boys and disagree with the goals of Al Qaeda doesn’t mean they have no similarities.

And, BTW, for the most part, the reason people join terrorist groups is because there is something they want to see changed, and feel powerless to do so through peaceful means. Why do you think people join al-Qaeda, or the Green Mountain Boys? For the hell of it? If Bin Laden could get his Muslim state peacefully, wouldn’t he? If Ethan Allen could have gotten his independent Vermont peacefully, wouldn’t he have?

Dude, you’re slipping even more than usual.

Try to keep an open mind, then, bucky. Remember the job here is to fight ignorance, not perpetuate it. If you are able to question the received wisdom of your childhood, you might learn something.

You’re conflating the administration and press portrayal of the guy with the man himself. They are not the same.

Bullshit. You can disagree with it, but it’s an opinion, and apparently several people disagree with you. Unlike the GA idiot, who drew universal scorn.

Barely deserves attention, but I suspect that would be an interesting experiment. Let’s compare the american voice of non-violence with the Islamic proponent of Jihad. See much in common there? Oh, yes. Regious men. I think the comparison shows that different conclusions can be drawn from religion. Offended?

So, is it baloney or not? If no one knows, then Kaptor’s claim is as reasonable as any other. You’re contradicting youself in two sentences, which I guess is one more than the record. Try again.

OR, you could try to think. I mean, of other reasons that people join such groups. I suggest starting with Hamas, since a lot more is known about them than Al Qaeda. Then, you could continue this novel experiment by deciding which of the reasons seem most plausible to you, and re-evaluating Kaptor’s statement with some reason behind you. Rather than just knee-jerking that showing respect to one’s enemies is being anti-american.

I already posted, “I do not believe that anyone on this Panel really knows…” That includes me.

iampunha the basis of my assertation is that no evidence was provided. Furthermore, there’s no reason to believe that any of us or Ms. Kaptur have any particular insight into the people who have joined al Qaeda. Note that they come from many different areas. It’s not even clear whether they all have the same motivations.

The trouble with cultural relativism, in this case, is that it’s just made up out of whole cloth. It’s almost as bad as Pat Robertson claiming that al Qaeda attacked America because God was punishing us for being tolerant of gays.

Would it be fair to say that the lack of supporting documentation/citations provided by Ms. Kaptur is the basis for your assertation that her analysis is flawed? If so, how do you respond to criticisms (based on factual evidence, as shown by Captain Amazing, kaylasdad and Rickjay) of the stance that her position on the Green Mountain Boys is insulting and ignorant, if it can be shown that the analogy has merit?

So then do you admit that it is as foolish for her to say that a person might join Al-Qaeda for X or Y reason as it is for you to say that her analysis is incorrect? Having insight into something does often include knowing who’s wrong.

IOW, if you’re going to say she’s wrong, show it. Don’t say it:)

What bearing need that have on this?

To whom? Everyone in this country? Ms. Kaptur? Or is this your surmisal from what you have read in the news?

Anyone else totally lost on the relevance of this analogy?

Which was why Ms. Kaptur was telling people what she thought, and not what she knew.

This isn’t even cultural relativism. She said, basically, that Al Qaeda is a religious group, a lot of terrorists think that life would be better if people were Muslim, they are willing to die for what they believe, war with Iraq doesn’t fit Augustine standards for a just war, and that we should try to reduce poverty and oppression in the Middle East. No moral relativism in those statements.

In other breaking news, december beats a dead horse. Further updates as events unfold!:rolleyes:

Way to reduce human beings to cardboard cutouts. They were real people, you know, with real lives, and real self-interested motivations.

And you did it again.

I, for one, can’t see that she made any such comparison. I’m afraid you haven’t presented a compelling argument to demonstrate that she has.

That’s just too bizarre to be worth responding to. I’ll let Biggirl handle it if she feels it’s worth her time.

You might as well say that nobody anywhere knows why any person does anything at all, and I suppose there would be some truth in that, from an Absolute Truth standpoint. But I don’t find it terribly useful. It’s pretty much empirically established that people take specific actions because they expect to benefit from the actions they take. Sociological studies have made a pretty good argument in the past to support the notion that people who feel that they have no stake in the success of a given society are more likely to join groups that will offer them a stake in an alternative.

**
Read again what I said about blind and unthinking faith.

I you made the analogy december, I’d probably laugh and laugh. Only because you make the most-- how shall I put this?–interesting comparisons. As someone in another thread put it: You are the PETA of of the Straight Dope Boards.