Oh for fucks sake. You rail against me for simplifying the issue, and then declare that Sanders support is about trying to retake white privilege. That’s a more absurd characterization of any political movement than I’ve seen in any of the politics threads this election season.
What Sanders supporters are you even talking about, and what are they saying which suggest their main support for Sanders is about re-taking white privilege for young whites?
You’re obviously very smart, and I generally respect you as a poster, but that is seriously one of the most absurd takes I’ve ever seen. “Hmm, what do I want this election? I’m definitely worried about eroding white privilege. I’m not going to vote for the guys pandering to xenophobic and racist voters, though, no. I’m going to support the most radically left candidate the country has had in a few decades, who is sincere and idealistic about empowering the lower classes - that’s the ticket to restore my white privilege”
I like Sanders, but I hope he and his team will seriously evaluate their failure to get the support of black Democrats, and come to the conclusion that maybe it’s Sanders and his team’s fault, and not the fault of black voters – maybe they really didn’t have the right approach, and future left-progressive candidates need to use a different strategy to gain their support.
And I think listening, rather than telling, is a big part of this.
I don’t know if Sanders & co. actually have this perception problem, that so many here ascribe to them. (Obviously they have the practical one.) But if they do, this is certainly the answer. It is always the candidate’s fault, if they do not get their message across to people that they want to reach. This is why, as I’ve argued elsewhere, it is Clinton’s fault if she ultimately fails to draw in Sanders supporters. Not theirs. You can’t find Bernie’s outreach lacking, on the one hand, and then act like it’s his wing’s responsibility to come around to Hillary, on the other.
No doubt this is part of the issue. The other part is Hillary is a known figure in the community. Bernie is very new to it.
Bernie had an uphill climb ever since the twitter hashtag #BernieSoBlack that mocked Bernie’s involvement with the black community as perfunctory at best.
So the intangibles about why so overwhelmingly for Hillary is about being trusted because you’ve been there, Hillary has been there for a long time, ever since the Arkansas days as first lady of the state. Bernie can’t fight that amount of time.
One of the issues around HBCU was that if Bernie fully funded “public” universities then black kids would go to state colleges instead. That raised the ire of some black officials and Bernie had to then say publically that his plan would cover HBCU. It was not clear in his plan. It’s these kind of issues- the devil in the details that the Black community scrutinized pretty thoroughly.
If you are a Democrat it is your ethical responsibility to come around to whomever the party chooses. If you support Hillary and Bernie pulls this out, you support Bernie in the general. You may have personal reservations, but you support him and vote for him. If the party chooses Hillary and you were a Bernie fan, you support Hillary - you vote, and you don’t talk like the world is ending or you were betrayed.
This is what it means to be a member of a party and participate in party politics. It isn’t a rule, but its what party politics are based on. Fight all you want inside the party and during the primaries, but show a united front when you get to the general.
If you are an independent (like I am) you don’t vote in party primaries - you get to vote or not vote in general elections. I like Hillary better than Bernie, but because I may not choose to vote for Bernie (I will, the Supreme Court is too important) and don’t want to keep my mouth shut during the general if he is the nominee (I will, the Supreme Court is too important) I didn’t caucus. (I vote in local primaries because they aren’t party primaries - school board and city council are really about getting ten people down to four to fill two seats).
I did caucus for Obama - I felt it was historic to have a woman and a black man running and I would have supported either of them, I liked Obama better - I wanted to tell my grandchildren about it. And I haven’t voted for a Republican in years. But I don’t want to be beholden to a party (I’m a Minnesotan, so I have the nutcases in the DFL I’d need to stand behind), so I did it once, and didn’t do it this year - in part because I can’t get behind Bernie if he wins.
Sure. I think he aligned himself with the wrong people. I don’t know if it was arrogance so much as finding a kindred spirit who criticized Obama. Cornel West said some pretty damning things about The President. That cost Bernie huge.
He’s not. In fact, I’m hard pressed to think of any internationally recognized sovereign government that is worse than Saudi Arabia. But unfortunately, no one in politics, including Bernie, takes on Saudi Arabia the way they should be taken on, the way South Africa was taken on in the 1980’s, at least by Democrats (and some Republicans).
Dangerosa, as a former Minnesotan with friends and family still in the state whom I visit often, I must say those DFL “nutcases” appear to me to be doing a bang up job of governing the state at the moment.
I like Dayton. We’ve had some real nutcase state representatives and state senators over the years - and major city mayors. (Betsy Hodges doesn’t do much for me, but I don’t live on that side of the river).
Irrelevant–just because America engages in sketchy behavior doesn’t mean it justifies sketchy behavior by anyone else. In fact Bernie Sanders prominently has criticized in the past when America has engaged in sketchy and inappropriate behavior overseas.
So it looks like you’re not interested in a discussion about why blacks don’t buy into Bernie. You have no evidence that Bernie is in their best interests moreso than Hillary, and really nothing to say other than repeating really old shit Bernie did before most voters voting in the 2016 elections were born. Got it–I’ll be sure not to pay much attention to your further discussions about why Bernie would be good for the black community.
He did not just retell the story of American interference in Cuban affairs, he actually praised Castro. Castro is a brutal dictator, who has killed thousands of people for purely political reasons. It’s never acceptable to praise a dictator for “throwing bread to the people” because it’s a tacit endorsement of the concept of an unfree society.
As to what that has to do with blacks–I don’t think it has much, but I was following in your vein of talking about shit from ages ago that has no relevance in the 2016 campaigns. So I thought it was worthwhile to mention his affinity for what Castro has done in Cuba–note that Cuban government under Castro has been extremely racist, this is something almost never mentioned here in the United States. Black Cubans are disproportionately shut out of Cuban society (despite being a much larger portion of the Cuban population than blacks here in America) and treated disparately. So I’m just saying if Bernie gets credit for being briefly detained as a student in the early 1960s he can also go ahead and accept credit for praising a racist murderer–someone who is factually worse than David Duke (a man who has killed zero people in his life.)
He has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation–and most importantly, the 2016 election. I brought him and Bernie’s praise of him up specifically to raise the point–if you’re (not you, CarnalK) going to bring up shit from many decades ago, that has nothing to do with the 2016 campaign when asked for how Bernie is going to help the black community and why voters should vote for him, things that I think are fundamentally irrelevant to the 2016 campaign (like an arrest from the 60s, or student activity in college) then let’s bring up some other irrelevant shit from decades ago that show Bernie having close associations with a guy who is extremely bad to black people.
North Korea for sure, they have international recognition from a decent chunk of countries.
That being said foreign policy isn’t really the topic at the moment, I raised Sanders snuggling up to a brutal dictator with a terrible record on treatment of blacks in his country because I was tired of people bringing up irrelevant shit from the 60s as proof that Sanders is a champion of the black community. That being said, briefly, on Saudi Arabia a popular government would be vastly more terrible to women and religious minorities in Saudi Arabia than the Sauds, and an alternative sponsored by the west, like a military strongman, may be more friendly to both but would need to kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people to seize/maintain power.
I think I tried Fuck’s Sake at a high end sushi bar once … it was one of those cloudy unfiltered ones served cold … pink bottle.
You confuse explicit motivation with implicit ones. Without question the reason these White privileged younger voters care now is the impending and in process loss of their power and status. No it is not explicitly about it, just functionally so. No endorsement of explicit racist beliefs, condemnation of those, but a strong desire for the preservation of outcomes that are implicitly race based.
To his credit Sanders has been preaching the same message for multiple decades. What has changed now that suddenly he has an enthusiastic audience among young middle class college educated Whites? Are Blacks and Hispanics now suddenly dealing with the system being rigged against them, is that what drives their interest? Or the fact that the college education that they, with or without lots of help from family, could previously afford, is now not only lots of debt for them but also no assurance of a middle class life? The fact is that they care now because now they are under threat of being among the relatively powerless too … they would not admit it to themselves in these words, but, yes, because they are losing the place they had, and that they had by way of White privilege. Now they come for me … Again, if college was still more affordable for them and that education assured them of the lifestyle of their parents or better, while continuing to be relatively rigged against Blacks and Hispanics, they would not be now as excited.
This is simple restatement of what is being stated: give us (young White Sanders supporters) what we want and ignore what the Blacks of the party, and others, have clearly said they want, or else. Our way or no way. We can whitesplain this - the fact that what we want ignores the wishes of the overwhelming numbers of minorities in the party is just because they did not research our guy enough and don’t understand what the best choice is. Look! He was at a protest in 1963! It is not about being most worried about the loss of our privileges that we had (based on our being White and middle class). You have not heard any of us say that. You’re crazy to even think that! The desired fantastic outcome is to have enough of a victory in states with relatively little minority presence and outsized delegate numbers (by virtue of going later) that our desires will prevail … and then we will rely on others to do what we threaten not to do, vote for not the option ideally wanted but the one who was the better of who was available in the general.
I’ll see if Binny’s carries any Fuck’s Sake on my next run though.
