Boca Raton is overwelmingly democratic as is the rest of West Palm Beach, Broward County, and a fair portion of Dade. The Republicans had their support outside of the urban areas in the last elections.
Why was she eavesdropping on the people in line behind her in the first place? Is it reasonable to expect an eavesdropper to give a fair and balanced account of the confrontation? Sure, something untoward may have happened, but a) it doesn’t sound like we’ve heard from a reliable witnness, and b) even if we have, it’s a pretty minor incident to deserve a writeup in the press. Have there been thousands of such incidents?
Aaaaaaack! You need to start reading the memos.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5404386&postcount=44
Really? I’ve seen far more pro-Bush demonstrators in Boca. Of course, thatr simply means they’re louder, not more numerous.
I don’t doubt you, but what’s your source of info?
I used it because I had read the memo 
Aah yes, my favorite unprincipled voter. The “Dont-piss-me-off-and-I’ll-vote-for-you” voter.
Sam
I noted this story in the other thread as well. It’s repulsive, and the unions really seem to be acting ridiculous and counter-productively.
Of course, little mentioned in the article and given only passing mention in the story is the fact that pro-Bush people are indeed doing exactly the same thing, and the only historically notable thing about this particular story is that union Democrats have apparently decided to sink to their level just as big this time out.
I should note that I think the biggest realization is the BOE officials, be they Democratic or Republican, really need to be taken out behind the barn and put out of their misery. The idea that any of them are even Democrat/Republican is pretty goofy, considering that party affiliations are often based on battles over local county races that have little to do with national allegiances. But overall, BOE people just tend to be plain old terrible at their jobs (which is probably what we get for making them so low-paying)
For instance, here’s the absentee ballot in Cleveland:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/images/ohio-butterfly.jpg
Did you not get that you have to match up numbers instead of arrows? Congrats, especially if you are a Bush/Cheney fan, you lose!
Same sort of problem in a neighboring county: Kerry and Edwards are the first ticket listed, and Bush is the second. Except that if you choose the number 1 spot, your vote is wasted: Kerry matches up with slot 2. Game over!
I know that some of this sounds stupid, but voting shouldn’t be an intelligence test. Many of the people getting absentee ballots have terrible eyesight and a hard time figuring out complicated spatial numerical runarounds.
Some ballots in have the wrong Congressional race printed on them, which means that Republican Secs of state could rule them all invalid, tossing away perfectly valid Kerry votes as well.
By and large, confusion generally benefits Republicans, which is why Republican Secretaries of State like issuing tons of confusing and often contradictory rulings in lieu of actually engaging in fraud or suppression directly.
An “eavesdropper?” Frankly, I am stunned at this response.
But to respond to the point being made, I am unaware that “eavesdroppers” are prone to lying any more than non-“eavesdroppers.” If she is, in fact, an unapologetic “eavesdropper,” I don’t see a reason to dismiss her account. Nor do I agree that her account gives rise to the “eavesdropper” inferfence. What I pictured was a loud conversation, intended to draw attention and invite comment, especially given the reported conduct of the conversationalists later.
As for it being a minor incident, I suppose the same thing can be said for any individual instance of would-be Democratis voters being intimidated. Shockingly, I see you have not raised that objection to any of the threads with those stories. Why is that?
As with any such story, the inference is that if it happend once, we may draw two conclusions: one, that there are insufficient controls in place to prevent such activity; and, two, that one reported incident suggests the possibility of other unreported incidents.
I appreciate your ire at the campaign worker, but isn’t that a bit like boycotting McDonalds because they forget to Super Size your fries? The candidate can’t possibly be held responsible for the actions of every sub-peon working on her campaign. Heck, for all you know, that campaign worker might have been acting directly contrary to standing orders from the campaign about not harassing potential voters. You’re pissed at the volunteer, so you’re taking it out on the candidate; a candidate, I presume, that you would have other wise voted for. Aren’t there more important issues in this (or any) election than “who has the nicest volunteers?”
If I were in that situation, and got as pissed about it as you did, I’d probably tell the volunteer something like, “You just lost my vote because you’re a pushy bitch. Congratulations, you’re an utter failure at your job.” And then I’d go ahead and vote for whoever I thought would do the best job, regardless of how much I like their campaign workers. The volunteer is never going to know the difference, she’ll hopefully restrain herself from annoying other voters, and you’ve still done your part to put the most qualified person into office.
Yeah, private citizens can be real jerks sometimes. Whatcha gonna do.
That’s one picture you could draw, but what about the possibility that two friends were standing in line, having a quiet conversation about our loathsome excuse for a leader, which the nosy old biddy in front of them overhears , turns around, and offers an evil glare? I’ve gotten that evil glare myself, and over some surprisingly innocuous words.
There’s nothing in the article except the woman’s testimony as to what happened. Why should we believe her side of the story? Would she have seen print if she’d given a more balanced account?
I was working from memory since one of the disputes after the 2000 election was Bush saying Gore wanted recounts in areas that heavily favored him like Palm Beach. And don’t forget the infamous Butterfly Ballot was there.
Here are the Palm Beach county results by precint:
http://www.pbcelections.org/ElectionResults/2000/GEN/PCT0001.HTM
Unforutnately my attempts to identify which precint are which are not working (it appears that they’ve changed the precint codes since 2000), but Palm Beach was two to one in favor of Gore.
And so of course this caused them to yell to the crowd that she was a Bush supporter. That’s what people who are having a quiet conversation do, after some “nosy old biddy” offers them an evil glare.
Of course! Let’s strain real hard to blow this account off. Because her account does not align with what you want to believe. Of course!
But of course, when some self-righteous old sleazeball (who most of us here wouldn’t ordinarily trust with our milk money) says something that you want to believe, it must be true! It must be! (And by “you,” I mean the collective “you”—not you specifically, Squink.)
Yeah. That’s pretty much it. Assholes exist on both sides of the aisle and they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do. Both sides. Why is that so hard for some people to admit? I have no trouble believing it.
For fairness sake, I should note that the RNC has been caught committing fraud by claiming fraud, most famously in South Dakota where they apparently forged complaint affadavit signatures and shopped around “pre-written” affadavits for supporters to sign, which then opened those people up to perjury charges. Rove also has a documented history of attacking his own candidates in a nasty way and claiming that his opponents did it, or of staging “evil Democratic” attacks on Republicans by unknown, but surely Democratic assailants.
Of course, the real booby prize always goes to the idiots on both sides who think stealing their opponent’s signs is very very important to winning national campaigns (in fact, it’s mostly just very very irritating). I especially like the Republican who apparently knocked himself unconcious doing this, and so got caught red handed. Now, he’s very contrite, and says he hopes for a nice clean election. Weee… off to the races we go!
First, I have boycotted McDonalds in part for not supersizing my fries. Okay, it was the generally crappy service that I consistantly got at every single location I went to along with the hideous food but McDonalds is on my list.
I’m not going to vote for someone because they’ve got nice people working for them, but I don’t think that voting for someone because their campaign policies include being jerks to people in public. I could have believed that I was alone before, but more and more I’m seeing that I wasn’t the only person harassed (I have other anecdotes from people who did vote early; nothing on the scale of the woman in the article but general rudeness like I encountered). That speaks a lot about the character of the canidate (and just to flip this over, the same way that Bush’s non stop ads with its over the top hyperbole that is completely unjustified speaks a lot about him). It speaks of an attitude of disdain to their constituency, of a power hunger that they lack the grace to politely conceal like most of the politicians, and a feeling that the ends justify the means. Campaign workers are there representing their canidate and what they feel is justified reflects what the canidate feels is justified.
Guarantee, shmuaranatee. There is no argument weaker than “well, we all know what would have happened if X had happened isntead of Y”, as it’s meaningless and impossible to respond to.
That said, the important question, in my mind, is whether all of this was in some way organized by DNC-related organizations, or whether it was just private citizens being jerks. If it was the former, then it’s very alarming, and the involved parties should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. (Because, as you might say, I guarantee that if the RNC were involved in such a thing, they would be prosecuted to the full extend of the law… snicker). If, on the other hand, it was just private citizens being jerks, well, then it’s unfortunate, but hardly something which illustrates great hypocrisy among democratic dopers or anything. If the same thing happened in, say, Texas, my response would be the same, namely, “people are jerks”, not “oooh, another nefarious election-stealing scheme from the evil republican commie nazis”.
Rather than blow it off, let’s look at what evidence we have, without presupposing, as Bricker did, that we already know how things went down. It’s a weak story without independent corroboration. That’s not my fault.
Well, it’s good you mean it collectively, because I haven’t posted to that thread, and frankly, I’ve no idea what sort of weird stuff is going through Robertson’s head that would cause him to say the things he has.
- The incident Bricker already cited:
One woman who voted early in Boca Raton, at the Southwest County Regional Library, complained that as she stood in line, two men behind her were “trashing our president,” Fletcher said, declining to identify the woman. She tried to ignore them. Then the man touched her arm and said, “Who are you voting for?”
“I said, `I don’t think that’s an appropriate question,’” the woman said she responded.
“Uh oh! We have a Bush supporter here,” screamed the man behind her.
For the 2 1/2 hours she had to wait in line, she was heckled by the man. As they neared the voting room, someone in the rear of the line yelled, “I sure hope everyone here is voting for Kerry!” she reported.
That’s when the man behind her held his hand over her head and screamed, “We have a Republican right here!” There were “boos and jeers” from the crowd.
“I felt intimidated, harassed and threatened!” the woman wrote in her complaint to the Republican Party.*
This doesn’t pass my personal ‘smell test’. I mean, here this woman is trrying to vote at least a week and a half ahead of time. The line is hours long, and she decides to submit herself to their heckling for two and a half hours, rather than going home and coming back on a day when she can be in and out in fifteen minutes.
If it happened as she described, these guys were jerks, no question about it; the comment about “trashing our President” is neither here nor there. But it’s simply private-citizen jerkiness. As kung fu lola said, there isn’t much that can be done about that. And it’s not the fault of the party if supporters of a candidate act boorishly on their own, without being egged on in doing so by the party.
But I don’t believe this one happened. It just makes no sense.
- Elaine Fandino complained to the Republican Party that she took her mother to vote on South Military Trail in Palm Beach County and was confronted by 25 people supporting John Kerry for president. The crowd was “very angry and used foul language,” she reported. She said the man next to her said, “Where’s my shotgun?”
I’d be interested to know what “confronted” meant. It’s not like people are colored red or blue, per their voting intent. And people who once used better words, now only use four-letter words, and all that. And the “shotgun” comment…aren’t we the gun-control party?? Anyway, context again would be helpful.
At any rate, if it happened, and was as bad as they’re trying to imply with a set of sketchy details that don’t seem to add up to an episode, it’s still hard to keep private persons from being jerks.
- *In Broward County, at the regional library in Pembroke Pines, a voter complained that Kerry supporters used abusive language about President Bush and had signs and banners within 50 feet of the entrance.
Kerry supporters were “shoving anti-Bush propaganda at us,” complained the voter, who said he shouted back “Vote President Bush!”*
No, not anti-Bush propaganda!! How dare they! And they might’ve said, “Bush is a shithead” too! And they had signs that were too close to the entrance, if it was election day, which it wasn’t! OMG!
- *A woman who voted in Plantation at the West Regional Courthouse said she was offended to see five or six people with “huge stick on badges” for Kerry/Edwards, standing near the voting machines.
“Never in all the years of voting do we remember being allowed to show a badge or poster or literature while inside the area where the voters are standing ready to cast their vote,” she wrote. *
True. But FL made a hash of revising the laws, and it’s legal if it’s not Election Day, according to the article.
- *Juan D’Arce of Miami complained to the Republicans that he tried early voting in downtown Miami. He was wearing a Bush pin, but he couldn’t stand the taunting, so he turned away and did not vote. *
Specifics of the taunting?
- *Howard Sherman complained about his voting experience at North Shore Branch Library in Miami-Dade County. He found a crowd of Kerry supporters blocking the door.
“They were positioned directly in front of the entrance to the library in such a manner that it would be impossible to avoid them while entering the polling place,” he reported.
Sherman said he tried to slip through the thinnest part of the crowd, but a woman in a Kerry T-shirt grabbed his arm and asked if he was voting for Kerry.
“I seem to recall from civics class that this sort of electioneering is illegal,” Sherman complained to the Republicans. *
This is another where, if it happened, the people involved were being jerks - and in this case, surely violating the law. You can’t go around blocking access to a public building, and harassing those who try to enter.
What I’m thinking is, if Sherman thought it was serious enough to complain to the Republicans, did he also complain to the police? Seems that if it happened, it should have been brought to their attention, rather than to that of some group with less standing to deal with it.
- *Republican Lawrence Gottfried, who became a poll watcher in Delray Beach after what he thought was inappropriate behavior at the polls, said the things he saw upset him.
Gottfried said that while working at the Delray poll, actor Danny DeVito and his wife, actress Rhea Perlman, showed up. Gottfried is a fan, but he didn’t ask for an autograph.
“I said, `Look Mr. DeVito, I’m a big fan of yours and Rhea’s, but you are blocking the entrance. You’re campaigning, you’ve got a Kerry-Edwards button on, and it’s not appropriate.”*
I’m trying to visualize famous actor Danny DeVito actually trying to keep people from getting to the polls. What a way to get one’s face on the cover of the supermarket tabloids! And - horrors! - he was wearing a Kerry button! (Maybe they should file a complaint against Juan D’Arce (see #5 above) who wore a Bush pin into his polling place, for consistency’s sake. Or this is OKIYAR?)
But back to the beginning:
- Republican Party senior adviser Mindy Tucker Fletcher said she had more than a dozen affidavits from voters around the state that would be forwarded to Hood’s office.
So GOP heavy hitter Mindy Tucker managed to find evidence of a dozen incidents from a state with ~16 million people, two or three of which involved jerkish behavior of private citizens if they actually happened, the rest being so-what incidents, and not one seemingly involving action by anyone working for the Democratic Party, or by state or local officials supporting the Democratic ticket.
Look, if private GOPers have done similar stuff, I’m not gonna make a big deal about it, unless it can somehow be traced back to the actual GOP organization. There’s plenty of dirty tricks this time by actual Republican politicians and operatives; claiming that stuff like this somehow means ‘both sides are doing it’ is total horseshit.
No one should be harassed when going to vote. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that.
If the unidentified woman overheard a private conversation “trashing the President” while she was standing in line, that was not harassment. The fact that she used trashing instead of criticizing indicates to me that she is a little touchy on the subject. One of the men standing behind her “screamed” out something about her being a Bush supporter. Of course he shouldn’t have said anything and he shouldn’t have asked her who she was voting for.
Then how is it that people know who is a Republican and in “need” of harassment?
I agree that voting regulations at polling places should be enforced in early voting too, but some of this strikes me as anything but an organized attempt to keep people from voting. If Danny DeVito blocks the door, for heaven sakes, just pick him up and set him aside.
No amount of name-calling and in-your-face baiting is going to keep me from casting my vote. Voters on both sides need to square their shoulders and not be intimidated by the words of others.
We don’t know anything. But it seems like people are much more eager to pick apart something they don’t want to believe, while they simultaneously buy into the stuff they want to believe with nary a question.
And so you come up with a very weak scenario about maybe it was just two guys privately having a conversation, (but they’ll still holler out that the woman is a Bush supporter to the crowd)? Come on. Why did you even bother? Why not leave it at “This is a he said, she said thing, we may never know?” Why try to come up with convoluted scenarios?
Not that I think that this woman must be telling the truth. And I certainly don’t think that (if it did happen) it’s evidence of an evil Democratic plot. If it happened, it’s just one more example of assholes being assholes. We’ve got a lot of those around nowadays.
I never assumed that you did post in that thread, but it’s a prime example of people eagerly believing a very uncredible source, just because they want to believe. And there’s a whole lot of that going on too.