“Real live biblical creatures”-I take it these would be angels, demons, devils and…? Sorry, it gets confusing when people talk religion and assume that everyone else believes exactly as they do. It would certainly help if, when discussing items of a religious nature, you give reminders of which religion you currently are following, even if the discussion is about Christianity. For instance, Autolycus presumes we are talking about Catholicism(Roman, I presume) and I, though an agnostic, am more familiar with the mythologies of the Episcopalian, Nazarene and Hebrew religions.
Of course you can - it’s a case of setting the reference frame. What my OP was basically saying was - assuming your beliefs are true, show me how they are internally consistent. Discussing the beliefs from within their own reference frame - I’ll save my atheist frothing at the mouth for another thread, here I wanted to give kanicbird the benefit of the doubt and have him argue for his worldview, which I think he and others have actually done very well. Of course, it all depends on belief in true free will, spirits and demons, which of course I don’t have, but still, it is just a thought experiment (for me, I know kanic and Auto are different).
At least on this one aspect, where I thought **kanic *was being inconsistent, he could actually show how there was a reason for his statements about the motivations of demons, self-consistent with his reference frame. That interests me, and I don’t need to step outside the reference frame in this thread *to derive benefit from the discussion, if all it’ll do is derail the thread and make kanic less likely to spill the beans on his worldview. There will be lots of other threads for that.
No. What he said may have been misreported, misinterpreted, etc.
Hell, I’m not bashful about sharing my beliefs on the subject. Besides, I might as well distinguish myself from Kanicbird. I have no clue what type of Christian he is, but I’m Roman Catholic. I lean more towards the mystical side, as I am huge fan of the Jesuit Order and particularly St. Ignatius of Loyola.
First of all, I’m not sure if my Catholic beliefs pertainting to demons are dogma. The only thing I think is dogma is the existence of Satan and his presence in Hell. At the Easter Mass, one repeats the Baptismal vow, which includes a rejection of Satan and all his works. Baptismal vows.
Satan, or Lucifer (the morning star), was the highest of the Angels and also the most powerful. He was a seraphim, which ranked above the cherubim. The angelic hiearchy in relation to Tolkien’s Ainur being broken into Valar and Maiar is fun to think about; but I digress.
Lucifer did God’s duty, doing whatever angels do before Man was created. At some point, Lucifer became proud. He could be a better God than God. So he gathered angels sympathetic to his cause and caused a civil war. Yes, this is basically Paradise Lost by Milton I realize. But bear with me… I’m not just a sheeple idea stealer.
Oh, I forgot to mention that I believe demons have free will. All created beings have the free will. The kicker about angels is that they have full access to God’s Divine Nature. When an angel decides to rebel against God, it’s pretty much a final decision. Sin is choosing My Will over God’s will. So when an angel sins, due to knowing God perfectly, it’s final IMO. They have no new information coming in about God, so why change? Also, the time issue comes into play… but that’s a mystery to me.
So ok we all know what happens. God wins and Satan goes to hell. Now, again… the argument comes up. Satan had fallen angels, but were they demons? I would think that those fallen angels could be called demons and thus nullify the point. As to whether earth-borne beings of demonic nature (such as djinns and faeries and w/e) could exist, I dont think Catholicism has much to say on the matter. I have to rely on Tomndebb or somebody else more experienced to help me on that one.
Satan’s sin was the biggest sin of all, that is Pride. In a fashion, all sins can be broken down into Pride. I capitalize it b/c like most things theological, it has a seperate definition. Pride in this instance is choosing own’s one will over God’s will. In humans this is different b/c how the fuck do we know what God’s will is most of the time? But for angelic beings, this is cut and dry. Choosing not God instead of God is damning.
Ummm, so yeah. I’m sorry my post wasn’t as coherent as it sounded in my head, but I think it will clarify my position at least. Feel free to ask questions (respectfully and minimally sarcastic if possible 
).
I could see someone denying the existance of Jesus, but if you accept that Jesus came in the flesh, I don’t see how one could deny that he cast out demons AND he gave us the authority over demons - it is pretty clear even going back to the Greek text. Demons were pretty well understood and the Greek language had different words for different ‘levels’ of demons.
If Jesus just did a one time cast out of demons then I might buy what you said, but this is repeated many times in scripture as well as instructions for us, and the authority given to us - there is simply no way this was misreported or misinterpreted.
As a general basis I would like to stick to what is in the bible, I don’t really buy into any one Christian religion, and as long as their view is biblical then I can accept it, if it’s not contradicted in the Bible I consider it possible (within reason). I think other sources of mythology such as Greek mythology, though a fractured mirror at best, have some insight into demonology, but the source of that mythology is from the satanic kingdom.
As for the creatures in short we have God (Father, Son, Spirit), Angels (and the levels of angels), man, animals, Fallen angels (principalities), ‘powers’ (between fallen angels and demons - no direct english word), demons, Satan (may or may no be a fallen angel), nephelium ( demon father human mother - extinct or spiritual being only now), perhaps a being that has a human father demonic mother - only in the spiritual world now - but this last one is a guess that there is a counterpart for the nephelium.
Or that other people put words in his mouth. Or that he was crazy. Or that he was mistaken. Or mythical.
After 2000 years it’s a bit much to assume perfect accuracy in the Bible’s accounts. It was written by humans, passed along by humans, edited by humans; there was plenty of openings for error to creep in. So, even if one assumes that there really was a Jesus and that he really was the son of God, saying that there are no demons doesn’t mean that you think he was a liar. It does mean that you don’t accept the Bible as perfectly accurate, but that’s not the same thing.
I just gotta say, MrDibble, I am impressed.
Here is another way to look at it - which is MHO. God’s way is not man’s, and seems like God inverts how we normally see a power structure, lifting up the poor and week and placing down the rich and powerful, this holds in the spiritual world as well, so the highest angelic being Lucifer, under God is to be one of the lowest servants - Lucifer didn’t like this and set off to be a authoritarian ruler much like man’s power structure. Man being one of God’s lowest creation will be lifted up to be God’s children. And God, through Jesus showed this to the extreme, allowing a man, to condemn Jesus to death - that man was created by God, that man continued to live through God, and everything that man has is from God.
Looking at what you’ve shown in this thread alone, how much of what you believe comes directly from the Bible, and how much is interpretation by you and others? Take for example the history of Lucifer, or the heirarchy of demons and otherworldly creatures you’ve presented. I’m not finding much support for what you’ve presented so far in the Bible itself.
The Catholic Encyclopedia is pretty old fashioned. It discusses Demonolgy–with roots in pre-Christian cultures–but ultimately states that “demon” is just another word for Fallen Angel, AKA “Devil.”
Milton is the major source for the Hierarchy of Hell. (Or “Lowerarchy”–if you prefer C S Lewis’s donnish humor.)
Catholicism has no problem in accepting extra-Biblical literature as having theological truth and legitimacy. I’m not saying Milton is dogma, but my point is that the Catholic belief in demons is most certainly heavily derived from folklore and literature.
Outside sources and interpretation, then.
Clem “chose” to stop snacking on kittens.
And Anya–back in Demon form for a while–petitioned to undo a particularly bloody massacre that she had arranged. Even though she thought it would mean her death.
So my cat is going to rule over me in Heaven?
Uh oh… 
-FrL-
Yeah, like you’d notice the difference.
I did state that the link of Satan as fallen Lucifer was not all that strong biblically, but entertained that theory as it does not contradict the Bible, but I was not the one who brough up that theory. I do have more direct biblical evidence for demonology, but the Bible sets fixed points of spiritual knowledge and we fill in the gaps to make sense of the whole picture.