Dems - Defend your Senators holding the budget bill hostage

I would prefer they put more emphasis on things like on environmental and economic policy, as opposed to immigration, but I don’t have a problem with a government shutdown in principle. I just don’t know if Democrats are going to get the mileage out of it that they think. Typically it’s the congress (and the minority party in particular) that has gotten blamed for shutdowns and sequesters, and that might impact them more so than Republicans. Or maybe not. Hard to tell at this point.

That’s only if the minority party controls one of the houses, where they can be blamed for the particular piece of disfunction they control. That shit don’t fly, now.

I’m going to add in here that one issue in this thread is that the Pubs control the government. But that is not exactly true. Thanks to the procedural filibuster NO party truly controls the Senate (where the threatened shutdown is happening) if the minority party has 41 votes.

My take on this is that yes there are some issues that are important enough that everything should shut down until it is resolved*. I personally believe that the increasing debt is important enough of an issue to force Congress to consider it** when they (yes both sides so this is antiDem and antiPub) want to spend more money. I also believe DACA is important enough of an issue to threaten a shutdown AND I think that that is the case regardless of how you feel about illegal immigration. The United States made a promise to dreamers and whether or not you agree or disagree with that promise it is now a question if the United States will honor its commitments on something that has a major impact on so many people.

So bottom line is just as I defend the potential shutdown to resolve the problem with an unsustainable tax/spend system I likewise support this potential shutdown over DACA but I think shutdown should be for MAJOR issues - not for whether or not the Senate offices should be painted in eggshell or ecru.

*Which is why is support removing the procedural filibuster. If the minority party feels an issue is important enough to obstruct the efforts of the majority party then it is important enough to shut down the Senate with a real filibuster.

** There are so many issues with this that I don’t want to hijack the thread on this.

That’s only if the minority party controls one of the houses, where they can be blamed for the particular piece of disfunction they control. That shit don’t fly, now.

ETA: Yeah, that’s phrased poorly… but you know what I mean and I gtg now.

Tell us again who has the majority in both houses.

Several people have made this point, but I can’t fathom what they mean. Everyone knows that the Senate works with a filibuster. On what basis would people be saying that the “party out of power” is not to blame if the cause of the shutdown is them using their filibuster power to block the legislation?

If the other guy has pulled out a gun, you’re a fool if you keep fighting with a knife.

Republicans are the ones establishing all these bad precedents and the Democrats are rightfully denouncing them for it. But once the Republicans have shown they’re willing to do these things, the Democrats have to follow their lead or concede control of the country to the Republicans.

Republicans need to stop crying “Mom! He hit me back!”

As I understand it, McConnell is refusing to have a vote on DACA, and refusing to have a vote on a clean, several-day-long funding extension. He would rather have government shut down than hold either of these votes. These are the issues he thinks are important enough to shut the government down over. Do you agree with him?

The Republicans’ immediate problem is the number of defectors from their own ranks. Either they have lack of discipline, or there are just too many who want to do the right thing instead of what they’re ordered to do. The broader issue is, of course, that the Republican leadership doesn’t recognize that their responsibility is to the entire country and not just their own partisan agenda.

But it’s all the Democrats’ fault. Right. :rolleyes:

I don’t understand this argument either.

At the time the Republicans were being blamed for the government shutdowns, the argument put forth by Democrats (and their fervent supporters on this MB) was not that the Republicans were doing bad things to Democrats. It was that the Republicans were harming the country. In that context, I don’t see the relevance of “he hit me first” arguments.

Yeah, this is the core. Literally all the sticking points are around new problems the GOP created in order for there to be sticking points. If they hadn’t nuked DACA and children’s health coverage in the first place (nothing was forcing them, or even asking them, to do so), this entire situation wouldn’t exist.

Almost everyone, including the guy who revoked it in the first place, wants to restore DACA. But the GOP insists on keeping it as an on-going bargaining chip, much as in wonky’s example. Or
“Do what I say, or I shoot the kid!”
“But I thought you loved the kid?”
“I do. Just do what I say, and he’ll be fine. … Eventually.”

What do you think, OP? Trump and the GOP leadership support DACA: Shouldn’t they just vote for it?

President Trump has the power to cut off GOP obstinance and instruct them to include DACA in any deal. GOP leaders won’t disobey their popular leader if he puts his foot down. He actually did do this in his next-to-last bipartisan meeting, but Pence interrupted and pulled his puppet strings. Another meeting with Chuck and Nancy would solve the impasse but our overworked President has nobody else he trusts to inspect golf courses. Sad.

This isn’t a filibuster issue. The Republicans don’t have the problem of getting 60 votes because they can’t get 50, either. Now tell us why that is.

Last I checked, the DACA version had majority Senate support, while McConnell’s doesn’t. How are the Democrats the one holding everything hostage?

It’s not like House Democrats are leaving Washington knowing their bill won’t pass, or anything.

Why should the Republicans stick around to deal with this problem? They are just following Trump’s lead, who is leaving in the midst of this supposed crisis to attend a lavish party celebrating…Trump.

The requirement for 60 votes (cloture) comes before the requirement for 50 votes (final passage). In this case, the spending bill will probably fail on the cloture vote, not on the vote for final passage.

Theoretically the bill could pass cloture with 49 Democrats and 11 Republicans, and in the interest of not shutting the government down I’d be happy to see that. But AIUI McConnell is the one who has to call for the cloture vote, and he hasn’t because of all the in-fighting in his own party.

So in one sense, yes the minority party could bend over backwards and make this bill happen, but given the totality of the circumstances, pinning this on Democrats (at this point) seems like a stretch.

If, and only if, the Democrats actually carry through on their threat to filibuster, will I actually consider them to have contributed to the shutdown, but it will still be a crisis of Republican creation.

At this point, there at 51 Republican Senators. Two Republicans votes against moving to debate the budget bill, and McCain seems to be in Arizona. There are a few more Republicans who are taking about voting against the bill - Graham and Flake among them. I don’t guarantee they are a hard no, of course.

As of this moment, McConnell does not seem to have a majority to pass the bill, regardless of cloture. (This could of course change.)

There’s clearly a bipartisan majority for passing something like the DREAM Act or something substantially similar to the DACA executive order. But the Republican leadership won’t allow a vote on it because of the existence of hardliners who simply want anyone undocumented out of here as soon as possible, regardless of circumstances. From what I can tell that’s a pretty minority position, but for whatever reason it’s being allowed to dominate the negotiations. Based on the results of the past eight years, there’s every reason to believe that we could just lurch from one 4-6 week continuing resolution indefinitely.

I have no idea if shutting down the government will actually gain the Democrats any leverage in negotiations or if it’ll just trigger Trump’s pathological need to never look like he was ever wrong about something or lost at anything. I have no idea who will be blamed. At the same time, I the Democrats have no other tools at hand, so if they want to make a fight of it, this is how it has to be.

But you asked me to justify why my Senator held the budget hostage. I figure that Ted Cruz assumed that he personally would benefit from the 2013 shutdown regardless of what the end results were, and history mostly bears that out.

Sorry, I have no more need to defend my senators on this than anything else. I’d rather see the Republicans try to defend their onerous cuts, their refusal to fund CHIP, etc.