Der Trihs, a word

[cosmosdan]

@Jotun

This is what I think bothers me most about some of the religious people I deal with on a day to day basis.

As an example, my girlfriend’s family is fundamentalist Christian. She isn’t so literal in her beliefs as they are though. It causes no end of frustration for us since I am atheist, but we manage. Spending time around her family is enjoyable, as I think they respect me now (I hope). They are a very giving and polite family. The oddest thing is that her brother and sisters (all of them highschool age) all have this vitriolic hate for homosexuals. I asked them why they believe this, and all I learned was that wasn’t natural and their church had always said so. Apparently the old adage “love the sinner, hate the sin” doesn’t apply to homosexuality?

It’s good you get along with them. Some Christian parents would have a real problem with an atheist boyfriend. {Unless they’re thinking that in time your association with them will lead you to salvation.}
I’m a little confused by the homophobic attitudes of so many Christians myself.

I completely agree with you that people in general (not just the religious) shouldn’t just accept what people tell them. Critical thinking is in short supply in this world.

Yeah, and then try to combine it with tolerance and mutual respect. It’s a hard row to hoe alright.

It’s actually refreshing to hear a Christian with this viewpoint. I don’t know too many who share it. I hope it’s contagious!

Thank you for the kind words.
Just to set the record straight. Although I have a profound reverance for Jesus and his teachings I no longer call myself a Christian. My own questions have led me to beliefs which I think are to far from mainstream Christian beliefs. I know the spiritual quest is not usually easy, so I respect anyone who sincerely follows it regardless of their chosen path.

[Voyager]

@Zoe

Isn’t Democracy a belief system? I think the cause of Democracy is being used to justify mass murder. I believe in Democracy (although that may seem irrational to some), but I don’t believe in the slaughter of people in Iraq for any reason.

It amazing how easily belief systems can be used to justify mass murder when the words are changed just a little bit. But it still starts with thinking you are right and ends with a lot of dead people.

Considering the way the current administration seems to think Iraqis can be converted to democracy the way kings in the middle ages mass converted their kingdoms to Christianity, I think you have a very good point.

[Zoe]

Voyager: What part of my saying I’m only opposed to absolute religions don’t you understand?

It was the part you didn’t say that I misinterpreted. You have my apology for that. I mistakenly inferred from my careless reading of that one post that you thought that all Christians are absolutists. It was a knee jerk reaction. Sorry.

But please don’t accuse me of simplistic attacks on religion. I should have enough of a posting record by now to be immune to such charges.

And I have enough of a posting record for you to know that I have memory problems. We’re even.

After rereading all of your posts in this thread, I agree that you aren’t simplistic in your approach. But even some Christians have moved beyond the notion of God as “the ultimate Big Brother.”

Considering the way the current administration seems to think Iraqis can be converted to democracy the way kings in the middle ages mass converted their kingdoms to Christianity, I think you have a very good point.

That was one of the things I had in mind as I wrote. Thanks.

Again, sorry for my misunderstanding.

[Voyager]

@Zoe

Again, sorry for my misunderstanding.

No problem. I try to set a good example, sometimes it doesn’t seem to be working.

[Othersider]

@Voyager

Well, the analogy is not quite the IPU for God, it is more how belief in the IPU without evidence (absurd on the face of it) is similar to the belief in God without solid evidence. A lot of it is to say to theists that if they examine their lack of belief in the IPU, they will understand our lack of belief in God. That invisible pinkness can be used as an analogy to the non-understandability of god is just the cherry on top.

I see what you’re saying, and I suppose I understand, but that doesn’t change how I feel about it.

It seems to me that many of you regard God, gods, an IPU, and any of a number of other things, in much the same way. You don’t see solid evidence that they exist (or any, in some cases), so you presume they were made up by people at some point. I think I can understand that, even if I don’t agree with it.

But then again, I think we’ve established that trying to prove the existence of God empirically is incredibly difficult, if not impossible. And so the debate continues.

@cosmosdan

My own questions have led me to beliefs which I think are to far from mainstream Christian beliefs. I know the spiritual quest is not usually easy, so I respect anyone who sincerely follows it regardless of their chosen path.

Well spoken, sir. It seems to me that the lack of such respect is what got this thread started in the first place.

[Uzi]

@Othersider

But then again, I think we’ve established that trying to prove the existence of God empirically is incredibly difficult, if not impossible. And so the debate continues.

What stuns me is that there is a debate when no one can produce any evidence for their stated belief. In any other situation there would not be a debate. Religion, and those who believe in it, seem to expect a free pass on this for some reason.

[cosmosdan]

@Uzi

What stuns me is that there is a debate when no one can produce any evidence for their stated belief. In any other situation there would not be a debate. Religion, and those who believe in it, seem to expect a free pass on this for some reason.

Most believers would say they do have evidence. There’s even an intricate web of false information that supports those beliefs. Distorted views of history and the misuse and misunderstanding of terms.
In The Fred Phelps thread in GD we’re discussing objective evidence vs. subjective. IMO subjective experiences are a valid basis for spiritual beliefs. I think that does mean that we have to be humble and extremely cautious in translating those experiences into beliefs. It should mean that people don’t declare their belief systems to be the one and only correct path for everyone else.

[Voyager]

@Othersider

It seems to me that many of you regard God, gods, an IPU, and any of a number of other things, in much the same way. You don’t see solid evidence that they exist (or any, in some cases), so you presume they were made up by people at some point. I think I can understand that, even if I don’t agree with it.

Not just presume. As we look back through history, we can see the evolution of the concept of god, and we can see how different cultures came up with wildly different views of deities. The Bible is consistent in one sense - if there were a god, he would have been communicating with people from the very beginning. The Bible does not quite explain why he disappeared between the time of Noah and Abram, but in general it is a logical flow. Too bad history doesn’t back it up, and no modern type of god seems to have been comprehended by the ancients. They saw the same sun, moon, stars and planets as we do. Imagine arguing that the moon was old if the ancient records talked about two small ones.

But the evolution of the god concept is even in the Bible. Read Genesis again. The walking, talking, god there, one of many, is far different from that of the later books. I know there are explanations for this, but feeble ones IMO. The increase in sophistication of the god concept around the time of the exile is striking, and is far beyond that of the Greeks. Then Christianity, to appeal to those very Greeks and Romans no doubt, took a step backward to the type of god fathering a demigod. Jesus, Heracles - same basic principle, and far, far removed from what Judaism had become.