That’s not at all what I see around me, though. At least 50%, probably more, of the people I go to church with are converts from some other belief (or lack thereof). And I live in an area with a good number of people who have grown up with their religion; go to any country outside the US, and the percentage climbs steeply. Several of those people, including my SIL, have converted despite enmity from family members. Quite a few of my religious friends of other denominations have done the same; most grew up in non-religious households.
Unless you can explain that, you need to try to understand it better. More and more religious people are not that way “because their parents were,” and the numbers are only going to grow. Your interpretation is not going to keep being valid for very much longer.
So, 50% of these people were Jews, Buddists, and Muslims before they joined your church? Or, was it more likely that they were just another form of Christian and they liked your church more than the one they came from?
Okay, so you’ve finished on indoctrination session. What did you do for the rest of the time? Have it drummed into you why their way was better perhaps?
Well, my SIL (actually two of them come to think of it) was Buddhist, yes. Mostly people have come from nothing-in-particular, or sometimes Catholic, or evangelical–it’s all over. I’ve known some Jews too. We can’t baptize Muslims without special permission; it’s a blanket policy to keep people from getting killed by family members, but there have been some.
Then my one brother became Russian Orthodox, that was quite interesting. Don’t try to count my brothers and SIL’s, it gets confusing.
Isn’t Democracy a belief system? I think the cause of Democracy is being used to justify mass murder. I believe in Democracy (although that may seem irrational to some), but I don’t believe in the slaughter of people in Iraq for any reason.
It amazing how easily belief systems can be used to justify mass murder when the words are changed just a little bit. But it still starts with thinking you are right and ends with a lot of dead people.
What I ask of people on both sides is that if you don’t respect the belief then try to respect the person’s right to choose for themselves and treat the person who holds those beliefs with respect. Inevitably if we share our beliefs, their will be some conflicts. I think that’s healthy if handled correctly.
I reluctantly admit that you and fetus have changed my view somewhat. Perhaps in a world to dominated by Falwells, Swaggarts and the like folks like Der Trihs are the natural response to get the dialogue rolling. Fortunately there are others options as well.
I see you point but am not sure how you are using it. We can challenge beliefs on a single issue rather than the entire belief system, such as gay rights. My stand is to challenge the belief when it spills over into society. If someone believes aliens are sending kindness and compassion into their brain I don’t mind if they are actions reflect those qualities.
I wish he would refuse to engage. The problem IMO is that he inserts himself in many spiritual discussions only to say that belief is foolish etc. If he truly believes the discussion is foolish there is no need to repeatedly say so. Simply don’t participate.
My approach is to encourage believers to think for themselves and be willing to challenge traditional doctrine and dogma.
I agree with that as well. IMO and in my discussions with traditional Christians, if what they seek is the truth, then they ought to be willing to at least consider something other than what their pastor or priest is telling them. How do you seek the truth by insulating yourself within one belief system?
Where I disagree with** Der Trihs** is that he consistently insists on judging the spiritual by objective evidence. That strikes me as being disingenuous since so much of it is subjective.
No actually, What counts is how our beliefs are reflected in our choices and our actions. I think out of a sesne of honesty it’s nice to acknowledge what we have factual evidence for and what we don’t. I think facts can help people evaluate and poossibly reshape their belief system {they sure have for me} however, If someone takes the Bible literaly and uses that belief to help others I will appreciate their actions rather than critisize their beliefs. I don’t think belief in a diety is the issue. It is how that belief is used. As a helping hand or a fist.
That’s my point. Much of religion and the spiritual journey is subjective and there is no objective standard by which it should be judged. It’s okay to say “I don’t believe that” and I think we should encourage respect in the choices of others.
To say that someone must be a delusional fool to believe something on a subjective level does strike me as rude, coming from either side.
I am a non traditional believer. When people say “There is no objective evidence to prove that God exists” my reaction is “Yes I know,…so what”
What amuses me is the realization that all people operate with a subjective belief system and faith. Even the atheist who sees himself { or herself}as much more objective.
Now that would be a novel idea. Somehow, I don’t see it happening any time soon, unfortunately.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I reluctantly admit that you and fetus have changed my view somewhat. Perhaps in a world to dominated by Falwells, Swaggarts and the like folks like Der Trihs are the natural response to get the dialogue rolling. Fortunately there are others options as well.
[/QUOTE}
There are plenty of christians, who would be happy to (as Goldwater once suggested) kick Falwell’s ass.
ROFL. When I first read that quote, I started to really look into Goldwater, and ya know what? Despite the political rhetoric of his time, I decided he was A-OK.
No it most certainly is not, since I am a believer.
My experience tells me that many believers {I’m not even saying most} accept what is taught to them by others either by family tradion or by association. In my own history I had a real spiritual experience that started me on the path but at the time I associated the experience with the people I was around when it happened and accpeted their doctrine and teaching. I can think of several other people I know that this has happened to. Tradition is also a very influential factor in organized religion. People accept what the group believes in part because they have affection and trust for the group. Nothing horrible about that but when it comes to a pursuit of spiritual truth then we must be willing to examine the facts, and our hearts and ask ourselves honestly "What do I believe? What questions do I have? and then choose based on that.
Most people accept this so it must be right, isn’t enough.
My Pastor or priest said this so it must be true, isn’t good enough.
This is what Mom and Dad taught me so it must be right, isn’t good enough.
This is what I think bothers me most about some of the religious people I deal with on a day to day basis.
As an example, my girlfriend’s family is fundamentalist Christian. She isn’t so literal in her beliefs as they are though. It causes no end of frustration for us since I am atheist, but we manage. Spending time around her family is enjoyable, as I think they respect me now (I hope). They are a very giving and polite family. The oddest thing is that her brother and sisters (all of them highschool age) all have this vitriolic hate for homosexuals. I asked them why they believe this, and all I learned was that wasn’t natural and their church had always said so. Apparently the old adage “love the sinner, hate the sin” doesn’t apply to homosexuality?
I completely agree with you that people in general (not just the religious) shouldn’t just accept what people tell them. Critical thinking is in short supply in this world.
It’s actually refreshing to hear a Christian with this viewpoint. I don’t know too many who share it. I hope it’s contagious!
I searched Der Trihs’s recent posts and, although he’s been on the boards, and, in fact started a thread in the BBQ pit that is directly above this one, I don’t see him making an appearance in here. I admit to not reading the entire thread, but did he make any attempt to explain himself or to deal in any way to with his fellow posters about this issue? If not, personally I think that’s a pretty cowardly thing to do. So you can add that to your list.
I guess that would depend on what your meaning of “work” is. In my opinion, sometimes Democracy works and sometimes it doesn’t. Because I believe, I participate. Does that make it stronger? Not necessarily – not anymore.
I think you know that what I’m saying is many people can and do examine what is taught to them by others and decide that it fits them. That’s okay by me. Just examine for youself. Being a child , a parent and a grandparent i find that failry often parents do have something valuble to offer.
What part of my saying I’m only opposed to absolute religions don’t you understand?
Perhaps my happy and friendly chats with cosmosdan makes you think I hate all religious people. Or my saying that Polycarp was more moral than god? Or my stimulating logical discussions with Lib.
I certainly do believe all religion is incorrect. I think that some people accept clearly incorrect and illogical religous tenets (and these are not just Christians) to the point of being delusional. I think most religious people would agree, if not with regard to those who follow their own religion. I have never said that all religion is evil. Some religious beliefs justify immoral acts by some, some might even encourage those easily led to be immoral. I think even most religious people would agree here also.
But please don’t accuse me of simplistic attacks on religion. I should have enough of a posting record by now to be immune to such charges.
Don’t try to count my brothers and SIL’s, it gets confusing.