Detroit Tigers: Worst Baseball Team Ever?

In My Humble Opinion
21

I think the entire Tiger’s season has been centered around just getting the right people some experience and getting through it.

Bondermen gets his innings against major league competition. Some of the place holders (like Maroth) chew up innings as the front office shuffles the minor league players around to see who might actually be of benefit for the next few years.

What were seeing here is a team SO bad that nothing, at any level, is a real positive. There might be some plus value players but they’re so few and far between that whatever positive effect they have is drowned by the overwhelming negatives of those surrounding them.

I think Trammel knew this going in. There was going to be some severe ‘wheat from chaff’ going on for the first few years of his stay in Detroit.

Now, with the good picks they’ll be getting they need to start rebuilding. But it won’t happen quickly.

22

I should have clarified that a pitcher TODAY can’t succeed with that many strikeouts. The pitchers you all named mostly struck out a fair number of batters at that time - except for Spahn, see below - but the relative standards have changed since then. 4K/9IP is really, really low today, but in 1904 it was actually pretty good. I guess a better way to put it would be “Young pitchers who are way below average in K/IP are doomed.”

Cy Young actually struck out FAR more batters than the average pitcher; for much of his career there were fewer than 3 K’s per 9 innings. He led the league in strikeouts twice and was regularly in the top 10 in strikeouts per 9. Christy Mathewson’s strikeout rate was excellent, too. In 1903 he mowed down 6.56 batters per 9; nobody else in the league even got 5. Kid Nichols was above average, too.

Alexander is interesting in that his CAREER rate is low, but you will notice, if you look at his stats, that his strikeout rate was ABOVE average early in his career. when he was really blowing the league away. That’s not unusual. This is true to some extent of Nichols as well.

Spahn is the exception to the rule; he just had fabulous control and kept the ball on the ground (neither of which Mike Maroth does, hence my puzzlement.) Lew Burdette, too. I can’t think of anyone else; if you look at the list of pitchers with 200+ wins, almost all of them have high strikeout rates or at least struck out a lot of guys when they were young and good. In the very few exceptions, like Spahn and Burdette and to a lesser extent Tommy John or Jimmy Key, they only managed to survive because they were excellent control pitchers. And even three of those guys were above the league average at least a while when they were young. Burdette never was.

Almost all pitchers who enjoy some success with low strikeout rates flame out. You don’t see Allan Anderson around anymore. Nothing will tell you more about a pitcher’s likelihood of future success than his strikeout rate.

23

I think Illitch is biding his time for the labor armageddon in the NHL. Then when he doesn’t have to spend all his money on the Red Wings for a season (right now the smart money is on a shortened 2004-5 NHL season, and it’d also be worth betting on the entire season being cancelled), he’ll go on a Wayne Huizenga-style spending spree and the Tigers will win a freak championship.

24

ESPN’s Baseball Tonight reported that the Tigers have now decided to “rest” Jeremy Bonderman for the remainder of the year because his innings pitched are getting up there. They insist it has nothing to do with the distinct possibility that he might finish with 20 or more losses.:rolleyes:

25

Didnt they say that last year?

or was it the year before?

or the year before that?

or the year before the year before that?

or…

The tigers started rebuilding in 1985, some of the good players started and already retired while the tigers were “rebuilding”.

26

No, with the new manager I think you have to have faith that there’s something going on. Trammell always struck me as a pretty smart guy.

27

Gosh, that was a pretty successful rebuilding period, since they won the division in 1987 in one of the better pennant races of the last twenty years. You don’t remember the comeback against the Blue Jays?

28

Although I live in Tigerland, I’m really a Yankee fan so this is an unbiased opinion. I think the Tigers are better than their record indicates and when you watch them (I do out of morbid curiousity), you can see that they really are trying. Trammell and Gibson I think are keepers and should come back next year. Demitry Young can play for me any time, he’s a classy player with a great attitude. I remember earlier this year, he needed only a double in his last at bat to get the cycle, yet he legged out a second triple because that’s how you play the game.

Ilitch gets a lot of heat for supposedly caring more about the Wings than the Tigers. That’s bunk- if you’ve ever heard him interviewed you can tell he’s really trying his best. What bit him in the butt more than anything was the Juan Gonzalez deal. He gave up on some prospects to get Juan, who just jaked it all year, whined about the fence, and left them high and dry. He’s about as popular in these parts as Barry Sanders, which is to say not very.

Sure, they are a very bad team, but honestly I think they’ve lost some winnable games and just have been snake bit all year. They’e a legitimate 105 game loser, yet will wind up at about 120 losses for the year.

29

Can anyone give stats as to the top 5 teams currently and their salaries and the bottom 5 teams and their salaries?
How do the Tigers fair?
Is it safe to say that unless management wants to invest some serious cash that they won’t have a contending team?

30

Sure - top 5 in MLB standings:

  1. Atlanta ($106,243,667)
  2. New York ($152,749,814)
  3. San Francisco ($82,852,167)
  4. Boston ($99,946,500)
  5. Seattle ($86,959,167)

Top 5 in AL standings:

  1. New York ($152,749,814)
  2. Boston ($99,946,500)
  3. Seattle ($86,959,167)
  4. Oakland ($50,260,834)
  5. Chicago ($51,010,00)

The AL Central:

  1. Chicago ($51,010,00)
  2. Kansas City ($40,515,00)
  3. Minnesota ($55,505,000)
  4. Cleveland ($48,584,834)
  5. Detroit ($49,168,00)

They don’t have to spend that much more to compete to make it to the playoffs. The AL Central sucks. The problem is they give out contracts to the wrong people. They need to spend their money better, not necessarily spend more money.

31

So how do the bottom teams fair salary wise? I see Detroit spends a comparable amount. How about Milwaukee, Tampa, Houston, Montreal, Pittsburgh?

32

I am a long suffering Tiger fan. I still hold out hope that they will turn things around. Trammell will get this team playing well as long as he is allowed to stay for a few years. Remember how horrible the Indians used to be? Were they trying to lose? Did they not care? No. They needed some farm team talent to come up to help and also some luck with trades and such. They were dominant in the division for around 6 years or so, and are on their way back down now. Most teams in baseball go through these cycles, some more severe than others. The Tigers will make it back to prominence, they just need some time.

Are the Tigers the worst team in the history of the game? I think we should wait until the end of the season to find out.

33

Houston ($71,040,00) currently leads the NL Central.

Milwaukee ($40,627,000) is in the basement of the NL Central.
Pittsburgh ($54,812,429) is in fourth in the NL Central, 9 games back of Houston. Montreal ($51,948,500) is playing a little above .500 ball and is fourth in the NL East and 4 games back of the Wild Card. Tampa ($19,630,000) is dead last in the AL East but almost playing .400 ball, but not quite. Still better than Detroit and San Diego ($47,928,000).

34

One word, guys…

Moneyball.

35

Well ESPN just did a simulated world series against the '62 Met’s. I can’t seem to find a link, but it was only a weeks or so ago.

I won’t tell you who won. :smiley:

36

Moneyball was interesting but overrated. Oakland doesn’t go anywhere if it doesn’t get lucky with the three aces. Following the Beane formula has produced one of the worst offenses in the American League.

The foundation for that team was laid before Beane took control. Hudson had already been drafted. Mulder had already been drafted. Chavez had already been drafted. Tejada had already been drafted.

Oakland’s offense has gotten progressively worse under Beane, the only thing keeping it afloat has been pitching.

That said, I do think it’s important to draft intelligently and to focus on OBP/OPS and DIPS when deciding on free agents. I know I wish the Angels did.

37

I have to agree with N. Billy Beane is a good GM, but he isn’t the super genius he’s made out to be. The criticism of his reputation is quite valid; the A’s success at this point has very little to do with Beane’s alleged genius and everything to do with Oakland’s scouting department finding Barry Zito, Mark Mulder, and Tim Hudson, not to mention Chavez and Tejada, and before this year Giambi.

Like it or not, the A’s offense, where Beane has had more direct impact, blows it right out the ass, their success the last few days notwithstanding. Even granting that there wasn’t much he could do about losing Jason Giambi, the addition of Giambi would just make their offense average. The direct impact of Beane’s trading and signing brilliance has mostly been around the edges of the team.

It’s be interesting to see how well Beane’s approach works in the long run, both in Oakland and in Toronto under his protege. The Toronto results have been a mixed bag so far; the team is certainly getting a lot more bang for the buck, having gotten rid of all the deadweight (Raul Mondesi, f’rinstance) but they aren’t actually winning yet.

38

I shoulda figured there were Beane fanatics on here too! :slight_smile:

BTW, Cy Young is also the all-time leader in losses!

And, like someone posted about the White Sox, Detroit beat my O’s this year at least three times (in one damn series-sweep!)

39

The Tiger history represented here is a bit off. Wells was traded in 1995. He was in the final year of his contract and wouldn’t have resigned with this team because he knew they were starting a rebuilding project (which obviously failed). They also traded closer Mike Henneman. Shortly afterward, Kirk Gibson retired because he saw the team giving up. At the end of the season Whitaker retired, sort of. They didn’t offer him a contract and he didn’t go anywhere else. Tram came back for the 1996 season. Cecil was traded in the second half of the 1996 season, probably too late actually. He contributed to the Yankee WS and probably came within a hit or RBI of winning the MVP. But 1997 was the final year of his contract and by then he wasn’t worth it.

Obviously Mike Ilitch deserves criticism because he’s the top guy. However he has run the Tigers the same way he ran the Red Wings. To suggest otherwise displays a lack of knowledge of the situations. With the Wings he hired Jimmy Devellano and let him do his job. Jimmy D was great and is the primary reason the Wings are where they are. He drafted yzerman, he saw the potential in Europe and specifically Russia and Sweden, taking Lidstrom, Fedorov, Konstantinov, Kozlov, etc. Ilitch provided the resources to let the management do their job.

With the TIgers it’s been the same thing. The key difference is that the people he put in there were not good at their job and Ilitch didn’t recognize that early enough. He trusted the wrong people for too long. He deserves criticism for that.

I think the team has lost a ton of money the last decade and Ilitch took out a personal loan to build Comerica Park, to the tune of $150 million. Because of that debt he didn’t see the point in spending more money to make the team only bad instead of awful.

It’s interesting when people criticize him for not spending. If he indeed didn’t spend, they’d be in much better shape now because they wouldn’t have contracts to Easley, Palmer, Higginson, and Sparks to worry about. It’s his willingness to spend that got them here. I think when those contracts come off the books next year, (all but Easley’s) they may maintain their payrolll a bit by going after some guys who were not offered salary arbitration.

The problem has been the execution of the plan, not the plan itself. Randy Smith destroyed this franchise. Dombrowski has to pick up the pieces.

Sadly there is no store in baseball where you can walk in with $20 million to fullfill your needs. You have to take chances. I’m not sure spending on free agents is the best road right now. They have to rebuild through the draft. That takes time. I don’t see the difference in losing 110 games, 100 games, or 90 games at this point.

40

Who was the last star to come up from the Tigers system? Even one that they traded away before becoming a star?

How can a franchise with a new park and such a long history suck so badly on so many levels?