Dick Cheney you worthless mound of excrement

The BBQ Pit
121

World Eater

1: Shaky economy? That depends on how you define shaky. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the US had 274,000 new jobs in April, and unemployment was down to 5.2% from last April’s 5.5%. Its only shaky if your job depends on outdated business models which competition can wisk away elsewhere.

2: War we’re going to lose? Really? Last I saw (that was March 18, 2005, mind you) we’d already won the war and we were working with a newly elected and soverign government to secure the peace. So KMA on that idea.

3: Our ‘rights’ are being taken away? Which ones? I want a fucking cite on this, because I’m tired of hearing about how the goddamned Congress (which is duly elected and installed) backed by a Republican president (who again is duly elected and installed) is ‘taking away your rights’ without one of these goddamned ‘activist judges’ you always hear the goddamned talking heads blabbing about getting up in arms about it. Until you show me a cite, again it’s a KMA situation.

4: Two terrorists for every one we take out? Are you fucking kidding me? Do you know why 50 Iraqi police recruits are being killed by one suicide bomber? It’s because there are hundreds of these guys lined up so they can take a stab (both literally and figurativly) at the terrorists who are killing their friends, neighbors, and family members. If you want to go that way, for every terrorist there are two law enforcement recurits coming out of the woodwork. Again, a KMA situation.

5: If body count is your way of measuring it, then yea, things are pretty bad. Ever think about little things like internet and cell phones? Both are up well over 100% from pre-war numbers. How about the fact that on March 9, 2005, the entire grid of Bagdhad had water? It never did before (there were whole neighborhoods without piping,) but on March 9 it did. Even the checkpoint in Abu Gharab that I was stationed at did. Nevermind the fact that insurgent attacks knocked out two of the sixteen main pumping stations that same day, the grid had water. How about the fact that according to the WTO, the infant mortality rate has dropped 3% since the start of the war (first stats available since 2003.) How about the increase in Iraqi police and defence patrols who are backed up by but not lead by Americans? How about you get over yourself and realize that despite the fact that we went in there for the wrong reasons that we are doing the right things and things are getting better. I mean, goddamn! It’s almost as if you WANT the Iraqi people to suffer and American servicemen to die.

SteveG1: Mutually Assured Distruction is indeed based on game theory. That’s the final ‘button’ that will ever be pushed. But, if you look at the misnamed DoD and the concepts that it operate on, you’ll see that the ‘its to defend us’ is hogwash. The USAF’s operating principle is “Global Reach/Global Power.” The USN’s carriers are used not for ‘defence’ but for ‘force projection.’ A mechanized army with equiptment pre-positioned all over the world is not a tool for ‘defence.’ The threat of these items may lead to other countries to submit to our will, or the use of them may as well. Eithe way, we’re going to use them. Is it any different than saying (as we’ve begun to China) that we will impose sanctions on you if you do not comply (do you have any idea what it would do to China if we stopped shipping them grain?)

The quotes you put up are, in my opinion, suspect. President Eisenhower’s would have been fine, except for the qualifier on it. Ted Kennedy’s quote is absolutely worthless in this context, because it is an arguement against the current administration, as opposed to the ‘nuclear option’ (the one that kills, as opposed to the one that leads to up or down votes.) You misquoted Col. Donovan. As typed, the only cite I could find was on www.anti-war.com. The actual quotes (its an oddly rewritten form of two different quotes) read “Chauvinism is a proud and bellicose form of patriotism… which equates the national honor with military victory” and “The dangerous patriot… is a defender of militarism and its ideals of war and glory.” Both can be found on www.brainyquote.com or in his book Militarism, USA by Scribner publishing. And I can’t argue with Ol’ Ronnie. He has it right. But to quote President Kennedy, “Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” Sometimes the cost is worth it.

122

Well, you seem to forget ol’ Saddam, and his gassing of the Kurds back in '88 which caused over 10,000 deaths. Or his crackdown on uprisings back in '93 when he had some 2,000 people executed. So, which month is that ‘any other’ you speak of?

123

Dammit. Now if the question was on Virginia Civil Procedure I would still have got it wrong, but felt worse about it…

And I have even been to Khartoum. Not to watch the A’s though. Well, I guess I have been in Khartoum, as the ‘trip’ involved standing in the open door of an aircraft on the way to Malawi, being blasted by the heat, and slowly realizing the guard was pointing a gun at me because he was unhappy at me having a camera hung around my neck.

124

He was thinking Fujifilm was better. :wink:

125

The difference being is you seem to think holding the US to a higher standard entails saying that the US’s human rights record is better than China, Saudi, The Sudan and North Korea, so we should ignore violations. I think that the holding the US entails recognizing that while the US’s human rights record is better than China, Saudi, The Sudan and North Korea, that’s not enough. Where we screw up, we should work actively to stop it. The aim must be zero violations. In that case, we should be thankful to organizations like Amnesty International for showing us where we can do better. As far as I can see, there are only two options. Deny the abuse occurred (which is a consist, if apparently counterfactual position) or admit it, and deal with it. You are right that some steps are being taken to deal with it, and we can argue as to whether those steps are sufficient or not, but tacking on to the end “But at least we aren’t as bad as the North Koreans” kind of undermines the idea of a nation committed to respecting human rights.

Do you have a cite for the 1,500 people total in the three facilities you name? The numbers I have seen (from a filthy left wing anti-American source, of course :rolleyes: ) put them at over 4,300 in April. And another 7,700 elsewhere in Iraq. Commie Link Did they drop off that much in May? I had my head pretty firmly in books most of the month, so I might have missed something.

As for Amnesty’s priorities, don’t you think the reason you have the impression they care more about American human rights violations might be because the media here does not report their comments on anywhere else in the world, except sometimes when they comment on the Occupied Territories? Just how sexy a headline is “Amnesty International report Saudi Arabia oppresses women?”

126

Reading the link you provided (then backing it up with similar articles from the DoD’s website,) it does appear that I under-estimated the number of prisoners. I stand corrected.

Actually, I hear Amnesty Int’l spokespeople all over NPR. It’s just that they don’t sound shrill when discussing Darfauhr. It’s not that the media doesn’t report on it, they do. It’s that AI puts emphasis on certain reports. Take your pinko-link. “UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Guantánamo and beyond: The Continuing Pursuit of Unchecked Executive Power.” Ok, I can see where they’re going with this. Versus, say their report on the EU (detailing many of the same types of jailings) entitled “Human Rights dissolving at the borders? Counter-terrorism and EU criminal law.” So, the US does it and its the continued persuit of unchecked executive power. The members of the EU do it, and it’s Counter-Terrorism and EU criminal law. And it’s questionable at that! I see your point, but do you see mine? They (AI) skew their own reports to be anti-American. Its the little things like that which will either make a whole country sit up and take notice, or take no notice at all.

127

Fush, it’s a bit late over here, I’ll address your posts first thing in the morning.

128

To Fush

You see, it is you that is hearing them being ‘shrill’ about the US, and not other areas, and refusing to see that assessment might be based on your own subjective preferences. Taking the two titles you cite, I think they can be read in very different ways to you. The EU piece includes the phrase “Human Rights dissolving at the borders.” The US article mentions rights and abuses nowhere in the title, talking instead of “Unchecked Executive Power.” Which do you think creates a more negative picture in the mind of the reader? I certainly see where you are coming from, but I think you are reading bias in because you want to see bias.

Amnesty issues a lot of stuff on the US because they view the death penalty as a breach of human rights. Given that the US executes people in public, and the names of the people are available, you will see Amnesty campaigns more often on that matter than you will, on, for example, executions in China, which is not so forthcoming to the press (in advance) over to whom they will be giving the chop.

129

Sure thing. Sleep well.

130

Again, I believe the one on the USA does, because if we simply go by the title (which is what most folks will base their bias on, as it’s the first thing they see,) they’re not stating that the EU may be violating rights, they are questioning it. It is possible. It may be happening. The one on the US is a statement. Period, end of sentence.

Since we both recognize eachother’s points, I think we should chalk this point up to ‘agreeing to disagree’ and get back to the op’s point of Cheney and his dismissal of Amnesty Int’l.

131

Want to try that again in English, sport?

He means since the occupation, you incredible jackass.

132

Oh man, I’m glad this thread is in the pit, because I get the urge to do this every once in awhile but it always happens in some other forum. Anyway, here goes:

“Fush”: Your user name is stupid and you are an idiot.

That is all.

133

Hey! We’re better at this human rights thing than SADDAM HUSSEIN! YAAAAY!

:rolleyes:

I would hope that the bar would be set a bit higher…

134

You know exactly what I mean. Where in the President’s oath of office does it say that he can decide, if the time ever comes, that the US should lay down and die instead of taking the rest of the world with us. I thought you could read over the sixth grade level.

He did not say so. If he means so, he will clarify tomorrow morning, as it is late over where he is now. And its good to see your debate style improving. A year ago you would have simply called me a jackass.

135

Thanks for that. Its good to see that you had something to contribute here. Oh, and the username has two purposes. One, FJM are my initials. Second, the board wouldn’t like it if my username was Fuck You Man.

136

So, where does the tie-in between casualties due to suicide bombers and the deliberate murder of civilians come in? Now, if you want a hint, you should have used Ville as part of the arguement. He posted something actually ON human rights, as opposed to you cross wiring the two arguements here in the thread. Please, bring an actual arguement next time.

137

DNFTTwit

138

Huh?

139

…Yeah…I got that…That’s why I said it was stupid.

Well, see, the problem is that you’re going to find yourself having a hard time getting constructive replies when you start vomitting up diarrhea like this:

This:

(ever read the PATRIOT Act?) And this:

Shit, you’re right :smack:. I apologize. I’m the idiot here; internet and cell phones are way more important than human lives!

140

Ah. Well, see, the Constitution kinda functions under the assumption that the president isn’t a sociopath. So they didn’t really bother to include the phrase, “and I promise not to wipe out the human race.” It was generally understood that that was the sort of thing you just don’t do.

Couldn’t have done it without you. You’ve really made great strides in the field of pig-headed idiocy.