Dumb question. As Gitmo used to be Hearst’s vacation paradise and Siberia is a dump I’m going Gitmo all the way, even if I have to be locked in a dog kennel.
Yeah, but in all three situations, the position of the majority is immaterial to the rightness of the situation. The matter does, indeed, need to stand on its own merits. So argue the merits, and stop arguing the popularity.
First, I home that you understand that “stress positions” is a euphemism. The military tries to find nicer sounding words for horrible concepts. “Transportation tubes” is used instead of “body bags” now. I don’t know which stress positions are being used, but POWS in Hanoi were tortured with “stress positions.”
You ignored my comments and questions in my previous post and how the Nazis began the attempts to exterminate the Jews with changes in civil laws. That’s why it’s important to guard against violations of human rights and civil rights. That’s why when human rights are violated with the use of torture, every one of us should remember how the Nazis did not move from these civil rights violations to the concentration camps overnight.
I, for one, am not going to be spending the rest of my life trying to explain to myself why I stood by and did nothing while innocent human beings were tortured. Whether the number is 10,000,000 dead or 14,000 imprisoned or 520 held without charges on American territory with an unknown number tortured, I just can’t be that kind of person.
Keeping my mouth shut would be the insult to those who have suffered before!
In honor of The White Rose, Munich, 1942
(I think I will start wearing a white rose until we stop torturing prisoners.)
Sure, but I was also put into stress positions in Navy boot camp. And boot camp was nothing like the Hanoi Hilton, safe to say.
Degree. These things all differ in terms of degree, and it’s this simple fact that seems lost on an awful lot of people.
key factors of course, is the length of time and frequency of this. Somehow I suspect that what you endured was somewhat less than what’s being done there. I recall when I had 2nd degree burns covering my torso from 2 cups of boiling water spilled on my back, my mother agreed that hot water burns hurt, since she “scalded herself from the tap one day”. orders of magnitude.
I see, yes, indeedy.
Were you a citizen of a foreign nation at the time you were press-ganged into the Navy boot camp? Oh, you volunteered? Were you offered an opportunity to prove that you were Mr. Mono, and not, in fact, Mr. Moto as was alleged? Were you enlisted for a set period of time? Were you, by an chance, 14 years of age?
Precisely, in what way, is your experience at boot camp of even the remotest relevence?
The level of obtuseness being displayed in this thread is staggering.
Let me be the Nth person to say that Durbin’s initial comments were precisely correct. The may have been politically unwise. They may even have done a poor job of communicating his idea because they contained inflammatory language. But they were CLEARLY correct.
Gitmo is DEFINITELY not as bad as concentration camps or gulags. But Durbin’s remarks were still 100% spot on.
So your contribution will be to post on the SDMB and wear a White Rose? You’re really setting the world on fire with activism like that.
Hey they used stress positions on me in wreslting practice AND at football practice.
BASTARDS! Who will wear a white rose for those of us who have suffered so?!
Does the obvious answer neither really not appeal to those who criticize Durbin’s remarks? Hasn’t anyone heard of the fallacy of the false dilemma?
The U.S. doesn’t have to have a prison similar to a Soviet-style gulag… and by and large, it doesn’t have one. But it also doesn’t have to have a prison where people are detained indefinitely, have no opportunity to demonstrate their innocence (and the government has no obligation to demonstrate their guilt or even that they are dangerous), and International Red Cross observers are not allowed.
John Locke and Thomas Jefferson certainly had a much healthier distrust of government than is being demonstrated by many in a nation modeled after their ideas.
Can anyone let me know how I, or any other American, would be in more danger from the people in Guantanamo were treated as if they were POWs?
Does anyone here really believe that would make it more likely for them to be able to escape from a U.S. naval base garrisoned by Marines and surrounded by another ring of Cuban military emplacements?
How am I, or any other American, safer because people are left chained for hours or days in their own excrement?
It’s disgusting to see this turned and said to be “insulting our troops.” I’m willing to bet good money more of our troops signed up to defend the ideals of Jefferson and Locke than signed up to defend the ability of some jerk to run his own little palace of sadism. Durbin’s temporary bravery was more in line of honoring our troops than people who say we shouldn’t spend our time criticizing our own government.
Damnit, it’s a hell of a lot more patriotic for me to criticize our government than to let dem furriners do it, after all, it’s ours… isn’t it?
How the fuck do you presume to know what else **Zoe **may or may not be doing to stop mistreatment of prisoners, you condescending prick?
And once again. What the hell does this have to do with Durbin?
Durbin has apologized for if his remarks have offended anyone. Poor guy was crying too. He didn’t mean to offend anyone, he was simply trying to embarrass this administration.
But weren’t his remarks offensive to Jews and Russian and Cambodian immigrants? I think he should go to representative organizations of those groups and apologize again to them too, and then resign any leadership positions he has in the Senate.
Trent Lott had to do that, and all he did was say this country would have been better off if Strom Thurmond had won his presidential bid a million years ago, at the old man’s 100th birthday party. Since Thurmond was a rascist Democrat at the time, of course that meant Trott just said something rascist and so he had to apologize again and again and resign his Senate leadership position.
Durbin should do the same thing, unless Democrats want to be seen as having a double standard when it comes to such things.
-d
This Jew says “No. Oh, and, you’re a schmuck.”
:rolleyes:
I’d say you should shut up before you say something stupid, but it’s way too late for that.
This is not true, and that you can somehow come up with this as a leap of ‘logic’ is nothing short of amazing.
newscrasher, your ridicule of the White Rose (another, better link) and what they did during the Holocaust and what they stand for in the eyes of people in many parts of the world tells me that you are either ignorant, childish, or cold. I just can’t think of another possibility. I do not think that your remarks are typical of most of the people that I disagree with politically.
From the linked Newsday article:
The White Rose first came to my attention at the National Holocaust Museum in Washington when I noticed that the execution of one of the student leaders, Alexander Schmorell, took place the day before I was born.
I admire courage. And I admire those who can set politics aside when a great wrong is being done – just as some of us believe that it is being done now in Guantanamo as well as other prison camps. As the article said, these students were not political at all.
You seem to want to make a game of political one-ups-manship on the subject of whether to use the “N” word in the Senate. I’m more interested in how people are being treated.
You never did answer my question, but chose only to ridicule and attack personally.
So noted.
I have respect for the3 origins of the White Rose movement. But again, to suggest we are in similar circumstances today is silly.
I like your thinking. See you at the mid-term elections!
When might we expect Karl Rove to apologize for these gems?
I don’t recall anyone offering therapy to the attackers (little point to give therapy to the dead). As long as Rove is around, Durbin and Dean will be the mild-mannered voices of reason.
Right. He had been sOOOO unsuccessful so far in getting out a message America can get behind. If only everyone could be as enlightened as most on this board! You are truly the intellectual and moral elite. Too bad everyone else can’t see it, huh?
Like I said. See you in November.
Just show me one reputable cite where anyone recommended getting therapy for the 9/11 attackers. I never said Rove wasn’t effective, I just think compared to Dean and Durbin he’s hysterical.