I kinda like Billy Joel as singer/songwriters go. He’s an ok singer, an accomplished piano player and entertainer (sic!) and knows how to write a good tune. Yet, whenever I listen to him, the chorus and the bridges promise things the refrain never delivers. New York State of mind, River of Dreams, The Stranger, Scenes from an Italian Restaurant, She’s always a woman, We didn’t start the fire…
Was his problem that he wrote great music, but never managed to do a single catchy “hook”? Don’t go changing will keep him financially independent for the rest of hislife, but it really lacks a good catchy hook as well.
I’m confused: To me the refrain and the chorus are the same thing – that repeated “verse” that goes between the different ones. Can you clarify what part of the song you’re talking about?
Not sure what you mean by his “problem” successwise – seems to me he’s rich and famous. Not touring anymore, but that’s by choice. One of the main things I like about him is that his lyrics ARE sharp and interesting and different, rather than just being repetitive filler. One time in high school, we were just hanging around in class before the bell rang at the end of the day and my English teacher picked up the lyric sheet I had out for whatever BJ cassette was in my Walkman that day. He perused it a bit and said – I forget the words exactly, but it was a compliment to the quality of the lyrics.
IMHO, people who say they DON’T like BJ have only heard the singles on the radio that have been played to death. His better stuff is the non-singles.
Maybe it’s a Swedish thing? In the US, any of the songs you mentioned would “keep him financially independent for the rest of his life”. He’s been that succesful.
I kinda think I know what The Gaspode is talking about. I like a lot of Joel’s songs, but none of them have a really solid, memorable lyrical “hook” in the refrain, though some do in other places. The refrain always trails off somehow though the song may start strong:
Uptown Girl!
You’ve been living in your la la la
Too bad you la la la la la la la
la lal lal
We were keeping the faith
keeping the faith
la la lal la keeping the faith
la lal la lal la
Why were you so surprised
You never saw the danger
lal lal la stranger
lal lal la la yourself
Compare with stronger refrains
You will come to know
When the bullet hits the bone
or
I want to fuck you like an animal
I want to feel you from the inside
I want to fuck you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to god
or more recently, and probably the strongest refrain of the bunch
Fathers be good to your daughters
Daughters will love like you do
Girls become lovers who turn into mothers
So mothers be good to your daughters, too
I’m not sure why Joel’s lyrics trail off like that. It might be structural in the case of The Stranger, which isn’t your typical setup. But a lot of his stuff has a very standard kinda structure … see Uptown Girl for example. It’s a puzzler.
Yes, I know it’s Golden Earring “Twilight Zone” first, but I don’t think all too many people would. And I didn’t know the exact wording of the first line of that one. I thought it was along the lines of slurred “And you don’t know.”
I think there’s memorable Billy Joel refrains. There’s just so many songs that you can lose the quoteable ones in the songs that boil down to confused la-la’ing. How about:
Captain Jack will get you high tonight
And take you to your special island
Captain Jack will get you by tonight
Just a little push ‘n’ you’ll be smilin’
Sing us a song, you’re the piano man
Sing us a song tonight
We’re all in the mood for a melody
and you’ve got us feeling alright
We didn’t start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world’s been turning
We didn’t start the fire
No we didn’t light it
But we tried to fight it
Okay, I’ll admit, I looked up a decent enough list of songs he’s done, and many have no real chorus to be repetitive and memorable (Shameless, Uptown Girl, River of Dreams), or their chorus (or theme, if you prefer) is largely not lyrical, it’s primarily instrumental (Pressure, The Entertainer) or just nonsense syllables (Piano Man’s bridge is just as memorable as its chorus, and it’s just lots of La’s.)
…and now I’ll have NIN “Closer” in my head all day at work tomorrow. Bastard.
I agree. He doesn’t write his songs with a verse-chorus-verse-chorus pattern. They are more like poems and rarely have refrains that are identical each time they occur in the song.
And when he does include a “typical” chorus, he usually changes the words from one instance to the next. An example from This Is The Time:
1st chorus
This is the time to remember
'Cause it will not last forever
These are the days to hold on to
'Cause we won’t, although we’ll want to
This is the time,
But time is gonna change
You’ve given me the best of you
But now I need the rest of you
2nd chorus
This is the time to remember
'Cause it will not last forever
These are the days to hold on to
'Cause we won’t, although we want to
This is the time,
But time is gonna change
I know we’ve got to move somehow
But I don’t want to lose you now
Or from Big Shot:
1st chorus
Because you had to be a big shot, didn’t you
You had to open up your mouth
You had to be a big shot, didn’t you
All your friends were so knocked out
You had to have the last word, last night
You know what everything’s about
You had to have a white hot spotlight
You had to be a big shot last night
2nd chorus
Yes, yes, you had to be a big shot, didn’t you
You had to prove it to the crowd
You had to be a big shot, didn’t you
All your friends were so knocked out
You had to have the last word, last night
You’re so much fun to be around
You had to have the front page, bold type
You had to be a big shot last night
But he has been known to write a “typical” chorus that is repeated the same each time throughout the song. From Honesty:
Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard
And mostly what I need from you
I dunno, I think many of the lyrics in the OP are memorable – I mean, I remember them, so that makes 'em memorable to me at least!
Also, what about:
My Life
I don’t need you to worry for me cause I’m alright
I don’t want you to tell me it’s time to come home
I don’t care what you say anymore, this is my life
Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone
(Of course, I always used to think it was “Go to hell with your own life…”)
You May Be Right
You may be right
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic you’re looking for
Turn out the light
Don’t try to save me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right
I hate to say it, 'cause maybe I’m woefully old-fashioned and just plain old (38), but IMHO, the lyrics Evil Captor quoted? Suck. No offense, dude.
(Besides, that " I wanna fuck you like an animal" song is an obvious rip-off of Cole Porter and Noel Coward.)
Never been a big Billy Joel fan - I find his lyrics too…dime store psychoanalytical? But that is not the point to the thread. I think the point has been made - his songs aren’t geared toward classic pop choruses. While I find his songwriting weak - even though lots of folks love it - I don’t see that as a particular problem…
She cuts you once, she cuts you twice
But still you believe
The wound is so fresh you can taste the blood
But you don’t have strength to leave
You’ve been bought, you’ve been sold
You’ve been locked outside the door
But you stand there pleadin’
With your insides bleedin’
'Cause deep down you want some more
They held a concert out in Brooklyn
To watch the island bridges blow
They turned our power down
And drove us underground
But we went right on with the show
I’ve seen the lights go out on Broadway
I saw the ruins at my feet
You know we almost didn’t notice it
We’d seen it all the time on Forty second street
I’ve done everything I can
What else am I supposed to do
I’m her machine
And she can punch all the keys
And she can push any button
I was programmed through
Give a moment or two to the angry young man
With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand
He’s been stabbed in the back he’s been misunderstood
It’s a comfort to know his intentions are good
And he sits in his room with a lock on the door
With his maps and his medals laid out on the floor
And he likes to be known as the angry young man
Blackout, heatwave, .44 caliber homicide
The buns drop dead and dogs go mad
In packs on the West Side
Young girl standing on a ledge looks like another suicide
She wants to hit those bricks
'Cause the news at six gotta stick to a deadline
While the millionaires hide in Beekman Place
The bag ladies throw their bones in my face
I get attacked by a kid with stereo sound
I don’t want to hear it but he won’t turn it down
Life is tough but it’s just enough
To hold back the tears until it’s closing time
I survived, I’m still alive
But I’m getting close to the borderline
Close to the borderline
Any better, Evil Captor?
(No. 4 was written about certain dopers, I believe).
The Stranger:
Don’t be afraid to try again
Everyone goes south
Every now and then
You’ve done it, why can’t
Someone else?
You should know by now
You’ve been there yourself
New York State of Mind:
It was so easy living day by day
Out of touch with the rhythm and blues
But now I need a little give and take
The New York Times, The Daily News
It’s just that the verses have such a punch and the refrains are… weak. Not seldom done by the backup singers. Or if there’s a refrain, it’s a single line: Only the good die young, Just the way you are, She’s always a woman to me, It’s still Rock’n’Roll to me.
Now, I’ll have that song stuck in my head for the rest of the night and most of tomorrow, as well. And for that, EvilCaptor, I thank you - sincerely! I love that song!
Maybe it’s just because I’m younger… but ol’ Billy’s lyrics don’t stay with me, either. Catchy little tune-writer, him. But I can never remember the words. lalalala… lalala… la! Good tunes, good tunes.
:Lots of pop songs don’t have chorises, per se. The Beatles often avoided them (“A Day in the Life”, “When I’m 64”, “For the Benefit of Mr. Kite” - and that’s just one album), for instance.
Actually that “animal” lyric is JUST PERFECT for the song in question, especially with the rasping, breathy delivery. And you remember after hearing it … once. The same with that Daughters lyric. I don’t even LIKE the Daughters lyrics, I think the song is kinda smarmy, but I had the lyrics memorized after hearing them once, and I wasn’t trying to do that at all. Very few Billy Joel lyrics of which that can be said.
We’re gonna get all tangled up as a group on this, but it depends on how you define a pop song. I would NOT define any of the Beatles songs listed above as pop songs - maybe “64” with “Will ya still need me, will ya still feed me…” as the “catchy” part.
To me, a pop song is about 3 minutes, has a relatively standard structure and a catchy melody that can cross over and invade your mind.
Hard Day’s Night, She Loves You, I Wanna Hold Your Hand - pop songs
Tomorrow Never Knows, A Day in the Life - not pop songs
Afternoon Delight, Seasons in the Sun, Billy Don’t Be a Hero - (awful) pop songs.
I think of Billy Joel songs like Pressure, My Life and Only the Good Die Young. Those, to me, are pop songs. They aren’t bad, but only Only the Good Die Young is a truly great song - most of his stuff is only okay to me…
