I agree. It seems from some of the stories that the young victim had an ongoing sexual relationship with at least one of the men charged. I’m inclined to suppose that the girl discovered at her early age through various messages (parenting, siblings, media, music, etc.) that her female wiles might get her attention and perhaps even popularity. The first tragedy was her familiarity. The second was not having an inkling that she was being dehumanized. (Again, I suppose, but my supposition is based on someone else reporting the rape/videos).
Men have been fascinated and repelled by their own fascination of “young girls” in our society since we established the values that set the age of consent - think Lolita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita. Finding an 11 year-old attractive as an appropriate sexual partner is not beyond the realm of understanding. What is difficult to comprehend is the lack of values and mores of the men who raped her and the families of those men. It would seem they are confused by the difference between ‘having sex with’ and ‘rape’.
her “female wiles?” She was eleven. That us is sick. She didn’t have a “sexual relationship,” she was being sexually abused (and probably from an earlier age than eleven, I doubt that guy was the first). Trying to make her in any way complicit or suggest that she wanted any of this is offensive.
“Great evil” is a bit of a catch-all term. I think its true that most men (and women) would rob another blind if they thought they could get away with it.
Violent rape is another thing altogether, and I don’t think most men support it or are capable of perpetrating it. Just my opinion though.
I didn’t in any way intend to cast any blame on the victim with my use of “wiles”. It was intended to be commentary on the many messages to which she’s likely been exposed - watch any reality show aimed at teens; look at a magazine aimed at young women; listen to lyrics. To me it is apparent that she is not getting the kind of parental guidance that would help her sort out those messages - or even make them age-appropriate.
Likewise a ‘sexual relationship’ in this case IS abuse - but not perhaps a distinction SHE made. Which is why I stated this:
I’m coming from this angle from my own personal history. I started getting male attention when I was about 11 myself. I dressed incredibly inappropriately (after sneaking out of the house) until my mother caught me. I was getting positive attention that made me feel good - and that’s why I did it. I had been fairly unpopular with boys to that point - but suddenly I made myself look a little more grown up (sexual) and lots of boys wanted to be my friend. Would I have had the maturity to NOT follow through with any invitation to sex at that time? I doubt it. The fact is I lost my virginity at 12. To a 14 year-old. But it could have been much, much, worse had I not lived with a watchful mother.
When I was 14 and my little sister was 12, we were involved with some local volunteer organizations. A “side effect” of this involvement is that we were spending a lot of time with adults and attending a lot of parties, fundraiser things with open bars – as well as after-work get togethers.
While no one tried to forcibly rape us, we got seriously hit on…A LOT. Mostly by guys with wives and young children.
I never went for it. My sister, who had some psychological issues, did. Frequently. Sometimes she would decide she wanted to sleep with one of these guys and would make it happen for whatever reason ( once she did it becasue she thought the guy’s wife was a bitch ). I only saw her fail once, with a handsome local actor that refused to see her as anything but a child and finally told her to cut it out.
She probably had sex with 20 or so men ------------- not trailer park types but “pillar of the community” types before she was 13.
So, I believe most men have it in them to be scum if they think they won’t get caught.
This was back in the early '70’s when stuff like this wasn’t really as criminal as it would be now. These days it would probably be considered odd for young teens to be attending open bar parties that ran well past midnight without their parents…of course my parents thought we were being sufficiently “supervised” by the upstanding older folks.
I used to work in a residential facility in Oklahoma for emotionally disturbed children. These were the hard cases who had nowhere else to go. I remember one 7 year old girl. She was cute in a 7-year-old-girl way, but I remember that she made me very uncomfortable. For instance, one of the things that she would do when I spoke with her was make eye contact, learn forward, and place her hand on my arm. It’s hard to describe, but it was exactly the same behavior that adults use that can communicate sexual attraction.
The point is that she was definitely NOT sexually attracted to me. Instead, she was sexually abused by her father starting at an early age (3 or 4, I think). One survival mechanism that some sexually abused children learn to get “love” from men is to encourage the sick behavior that they equate with love. Some become very good at it. It’s the only love they know. Luckily, the staff met with a therapist each week and he helped identify where my discomfort was coming from. It was the dissonance I felt between the girl and her surprisingly sophisticated “come hither” behavior.
I have absolutely no idea if this is what was going on with the poor girl in the article, but it does happen, and I wouldn’t be surprised in this case. Also, before anyone jumps in, this in no way absolves the animals who raped her. People with a modicum of decency recognize that an 11 year old girl sending sexual signals (if that is what she was doing) doesn’t mean an invitation; it means that something isn’t right.
One of our goals with this girl was to ignore this behavior, but show our real love and affection for her otherwise. This is a long process. I worked there for about 2 years and she was still there when I left.
Didn’t you pit a guy earlier this week for chatting shat about women and dating? And now you’re here trying to claim that most men are potential rapists? What the fuck?
Given the comments made by the populace, I’m guessing she didn’t report it because she knew the local culture and that she would only get blame, not justice.
If the NYT reporter didn’t talk to the victim’s family, it’s because he’s a crap reporter, not that he didn’t have access.
Here’s an article from the Houston Chronicle, published just the day before NYT piece, that talks extensively with the victim’s mother. It includes details about the victim’s siblings, their home, their classes, her parents’ occupations, the threats they’ve received since this story went public. The girl herself is currently in protective custody and even her family is not allowed to contact her atm. The Houston reporter also spoke with (but doesn’t name of course) the victim’s 16yo sister.
So no, it’s not just the accused villains who are talking here.
I said they are confused, in that what the assailants did was not “having sex” with that young girl; rather they were raping her. So, in what context do you say they aren’t confused?
Yes, I’m aware of the definition. I went to your link and the entire definition of use 3 is “to fail to distinguish between; associate by mistake; confound: to confuse dates; He always confuses the twins.” Got it.
The assailants can and have distinguished between the two, but just didn’t care. “It would seem they are confused by the difference between ‘having sex with’ and ‘rape’.” seems to imply to me that they were incapable of, or at least having difficulty with, making the distinction between the two. Apologies if that was not your intent. Edit: Heh, as always, **Dio **is succint with his response. Basically, that.