Did I ask for your fucking pity???

The BBQ Pit
21

For what it’s worth, pity makes me feel as though I’m inferior, yet “making it”, weak, abnormal, and uncomfortable. For a great book about this, read “No Pity” by Robert Shapiro. Excellent book that offers great insight into this very issue.

(as an aside, that book tells the story of a business woman who was flying to a conference and was waiting in her wheelchair for her flight- she was holding her coffee cup that she’d just emptied and someone came by and dropped change into it, assuming she was begging. To me, that defines how pity feels)

Zette

22

Major props to you for gritting your teeth and saying, “Thank you.” Your mama brought you up right, girl. :smiley: Big “thumbs up” to the White Rabbit for Tactful Tongue-Biting.

Now, me, I’d have flamed his sexist pig donkey-fucking ass off for addressing me as “young lady”.

23

Thanks for your reply, whiterabbit and for not getting mad that I asked.

You’re right. What I was trying to show was that I really have no idea where you’re coming from so you wouldn’t think I was ripping on you. I am ignorant in this area.

Ok, this I can understand. It would be embarassing to me too, to be singled out like that. And I get that it’s impertinent for a stranger to come up and just make comments about you (or anyone else, for that matter). I am still foggy aobut why pity would make a person angry. I guess that that is something I won’t really know until someone feels pity for me.
However…Zette’s story about the woman in the wheelchair does give me a clue…I’m trying to imagine myself in that woman’s position and I think at least I would feel pretty indignant. I mean, she’s just sitting there, minding her own business and some guy assumes she’s asking for handouts because she’s in a wheelchair. If that had been a woman standing there with an empty cup, there’s no way he would have dropped money in it. I do get a little “how dare he?!” feeling from that.

So I guess in your situation, I can see that some random guy, judging just by your appearance, coming up to you and assuming that you need some “encouragement” or whatever and commenting in front of your friends…yeah, I can see now why that would piss you off.

I think I was just looking at it from the other end and thinking if there’s good intentions then there’s no reason to be mad. But maybe a lot of people should think twice before piping up, no matter how well-intentioned they are.

Thanks for the insight.

24

You could brush up on your Robert De Niro impression: Are YOU talkin’ to ME?

25

Ohhhboy. Can I relate, or what? Oh yes, yes I can. I’m 22, attend college, live a basically normal life, and use a manual wheelchair (I have Spina Bifida, so I’m a paraplegic). I’ve been given, unsolicited, the “You’re so brave/courageous/inspiring” line more times than I can count. Literally. 22 years worth. I realize that the commentors are trying to say something nice. I truly do. However, it feels degrading more often than not when it is unsolicited. In fact, I’m so riled, I think I’ll start my own rant with a slightly different tack :slight_smile:

26

Hmmm…I think the more I read this thread, the more I agree with Ender, and will join in the fetal rocking.

The pit is a fun, great place, but lord, it’s convinced me that I should never make a comment to another human being ever again because SOMETHING about it may be construed wrong.

whiterabbit, I’m sorry you got so upset with this man, but I do notice that you recognize he wasn’t trying to be an asshole. You recognize that he was trying to be nice, and yet, you can’t acknowledge this as a misunderstanding?

My dad thinks I look like Lucille Ball, and while I’m sure he means it as some sort of BIZARRE compliment, I sometimes get upset with him for saying it. So then I have to say to myself: “he’s just trying to say something nice” and all is well.

I mean, comments like this from Sophie:

Scare me to death! Jesus christ, he was awkwardly trying to say something nice, not insult you. Spitting on him for that? yipe.

jarbaby

27

You’re welcome. Not a problem at all. (Can I say that in this forum?)

I don’t go around being mad at the world, or people in general. Don’t get me wrong. This guy pissed me off. I wasn’t flaming anybody HERE, I was trying to flame HIM. I’m very inexperienced at flaming, though.

Remember what happens when you ASSUME and you’ll be fine.

28

jbj: *[…]it’s convinced me that I should never make a comment to another human being ever again because SOMETHING about it may be construed wrong. *

Note that this wasn’t just about any old “comment to another human being”, though: this was about, specifically, a completely unsolicited and highly personal comment made in public to a complete stranger. If you really needed the influence of the Pit to convince you not to make such comments, well, happy we could help—but I doubt you would do such a thing.

*whiterabbit, I’m sorry you got so upset with this man, but I do notice that you recognize he wasn’t trying to be an asshole. You recognize that he was trying to be nice, and yet, you can’t acknowledge this as a misunderstanding? *

“Misunderstanding”? Seems to me that the only misunderstanding involved was that the intrusive stranger failed to understand that he was being rude, and that the mere fact that his comment was intended as a compliment didn’t make it non-rude. (Whistling at a strange woman in the street is also meant to be complimentary, but it’s still rude.) Let us hope he figures it out before somebody less patient than whiterabbit enlightens him with five in the mush. (Mind you, that would be rude too, as would spitting—I don’t think anybody here is seriously advocating either one as a proper response even to a rude comment.)

29

Well, I don’t know whiterabbit, and I am not whiterabbit, nor can I presume to know the man or anyone else in the world or what they intend. But I THINK that what he was trying to say was not meant to be rude, condescending or cruel.

I THINK he was trying to make a positive statement to somebody, and it fell off target. Whiterabbit herself said:

but she wasn’t able to see beyond the poorly crafted words to see a good intention.

Once again, I must reiterate that people can be dicks. And people can be cruel and rude, but I also don’t think that’s what this man was trying to do. At all.

So my point about never making a comment to anyone was not just from this thread but countless others. And I don’t want whiterabbit to feel that I’m invalidating her feelings. If she feels she was violated, I’m sorry, it’s a horrible way to feel, and it’s a very real feeling.

I, for one, am just GLAD that she was able to contain her rage to simply say “thank you” than spit on him or scream 'how rude!".

30

I WAS able to see that he was trying to be nice. Which is why I was polite.

I said before, I will say it again. You don’t DO that sort of thing. He had no business picking me out like that and sounding like he was so impressed that I’m in college. I DO see your point, jarbabyj. I really do.

Besides, where else am I supposed to rant about stuff that pisses me off? I’ve seen much stupider, if better-written, rants in the Pit.

31

Hah. I love playing the “What I would have said” game.
(Even about things that happened to me. Don’t we all?)

“And I admire you sir, for making it to retirement age in spite of your advanced cretinism. Truly, a beacon of hope for pinheads everywhere.”

32

OK, I’m going to get out of the fetal position and chime in on this rant.

I try not to stare. I try not to make obnoxious comments. I have a hard enough time going up to strangers and saying anything to them, let alone be rude to them. But if I was trying to be nice to someone, if I had good intentions and said I ADMIRED them, I just wouldn’t know what I would do if they came back at me with “You minkfelching toadlicking monkey-screwing assknuckle, I am NOT courageous. If I were, I’d have put your head back where it obviously belonged, up your smelly ass.”

I suppose I might get embarassed. I suppose I might apologize. Under my breath I’d be muttering “what a fucking bitch.” Because that’s what you would be. I was just trying to be nice. And if you spit on me for it (and Sophie I seriously cannot tell if you’re being sarcastic here), I think I would lose all hope for humanity and truly go into a fetal position right then and there. All I wanted to do is be nice.

WELL FUCK YOU I DON’T NEED YOUR PITY!

He wasn’t pitying you. He admired you. Take a long look at Muhammad Ali. The man spent years of his life secluded from the world because he thought that if they saw him with Parkinson’s disease, that if they saw the “great and mighty boxer” not able to hold a fork at a restaurant, they would pity him. No one pities him. They admire him. I admire him. He is an inspiration to many with the disease and even more without it. Hell, he got to light the Olympic flame in front of billions of people! I’m practically jealous of him.

I think that you’re overreacting. There are those that deserve your scorn, your anger, and yes, even your spit. This guy isn’t even close to being one of them.

33

Well, I DIDN’T say that to him. And I wouldn’t have. For the fiftieth time, I KNOW HE MEANT WELL. That didn’t mean that it didn’t piss me off! It only meant that I didn’t get mad until after he left the building!

I really don’t see why people are saying, “He meant well, you shouldn’t get mad.” Had I been rude to him, you might have had a point. But I WASN’T. I was rude in my RANT. I was not rude to his face. This is like when people post messages about bratty kids, and others stick their noses in and say, “If you had kids, you’d know better,” seemingly regardless of how awful the situation might have been.

You can think I’m a bitch if you want, I really am a creampuff in real life. I’m not even one online, at least deliberately. I got mad, I posted a rude rant. That’s the POINT OF THE PIT, isn’t it?

Muhammed Ali did something to EARN admiration. All I did was sit there talking to my friends and this man felt the need to tell me how impressed he was that I have a LIFE. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Had this guy, say, just seen me sing in recital lab (in front of the whole music department, which I get to do later this semester) and THEN told me he thought that was pretty brave, I’d agree. Because singing in front of people, alone, is damn scary for me. But it’s no scarier for me than for anybody else.

I would never spit on anybody. If I had done anything else, I’d probably have just left. That would have been rude. But if he acts like this with everybody with a visible disability he comes along, somebody IS going to spit on him. And I must admit a mean little part of me is going to be cheering that person on. Maybe I did overreact. (I’m not mad about it now like I was when I started this thread.) But I didn’t overreact to him.

I don’t appreciate being told that I can’t get mad at somebody who was quite rude to me just because he meant well. If I were fat, and he told me, “You really need to lose weight,” would that be all right because he MEANT WELL?

34

jbj: *Well, I don’t know whiterabbit, and I am not whiterabbit, nor can I presume to know the man or anyone else in the world or what they intend. But I THINK that what he was trying to say was not meant to be rude, condescending or cruel. *

I agree with you, and I have from the moment that I read the OP. That doesn’t change the fact that what he did was rude.

I THINK he was trying to make a positive statement to somebody, and it fell off target.

“Positive statements” made to total strangers about intensely personal matters, just like negative statements made to total strangers about intensely personal matters, do tend to do that. That’s because they’re intrinsically rude, and that’s why polite people don’t make them.

*Whiterabbit herself said: “I’m sure he was trying to be nice and make me feel good.” but she wasn’t able to see beyond the poorly crafted words to see a good intention. *

Seems to me that her remark makes it perfectly clear that she did see his good intention. That doesn’t absolve him from having done a rude and intrusive thing, even if he didn’t recognize that because, like many people, he didn’t understand that it is possible to be—simultaneously—genuinely well-meaning and offensively intrusive. It’s not just that his words were “poorly crafted”, it’s that he should have minded his own business, and not have imagined that his kind and complimentary intentions somehow excused him from the requirement to mind his own business.

*And people can be cruel and rude, but I also don’t think that’s what this man was trying to do. At all. *

I, for one, am just GLAD that she was able to contain her rage to simply say “thank you” than spit on him or scream 'how rude!".

Yes, spitting and screaming “how rude” would have been rude responses, even to a rudely intrusive comment.

Ender: *I try not to stare. I try not to make obnoxious comments. I have a hard enough time going up to strangers and saying anything to them, let alone be rude to them. But if I was trying to be nice to someone, if I had good intentions and said I ADMIRED them, I just wouldn’t know what I would do if they came back at me with “You minkfelching toadlicking monkey-screwing assknuckle, I am NOT courageous. If I were, I’d have put your head back where it obviously belonged, up your smelly ass.” *

Of course, you notice that this is not what whiterabbit actually said. And you’re right, a response like that would have been much ruder than your original rude intrusion. If you’re unsure about what you might do in such a case, you might try staring at the other person in bewilderment for a second and then quietly saying “You’re welcome”, and turning and walking away. If you wanted to be very saintly, you might apologize for your original rudeness while overlooking the other person’s much greater rudeness in response, but I think that’s above and beyond the call of duty.

*I was just trying to be nice. And if you spit on me for it (and Sophie I seriously cannot tell if you’re being sarcastic here), I think I would lose all hope for humanity and truly go into a fetal position right then and there. All I wanted to do is be nice. *

Ah, the great core lesson of etiquette: just “being nice” is not enough. “Being nice” is the same motivation that leads many people to go around trying to get total strangers at bus stops to admit that they’re miserable sinners and to let Jesus Christ into their hearts. You may believe with all your heart that paying a compliment or preaching the Word is a nice thing to do for a total stranger. But—surprise, surprise!—you can’t know whether or not they agree with you (they are total strangers, after all), and you have no business subjecting them to your unsolicited remarks. “Being nice” to total strangers in ordinary situations takes second place to treating them politely, which means not obtruding on them with your unasked comments about their personal lives.

He wasn’t pitying you. He admired you.

Admiration is no excuse for intrusive rudeness. Charitable benevolence toward all humanity is no excuse for intrusive rudeness. Love at first sight is no excuse for intrusive rudeness. It’s not okay to be intrusively rude just because you’re only trying to be nice.

I think that you’re overreacting. There are those that deserve your scorn, your anger, and yes, even your spit. This guy isn’t even close to being one of them.

I think that if wr had actually spit at the guy or yelled at him in the way she thought about, then yes, she would have been overreacting dreadfully. Considering that she was polite to him and only came here to tell us about how angry his rudeness made her feel, I don’t think she’s overreacting at all.

35

Muhammad Ali did nothing more than get out of his house and be Muhammad Ali. And people admired him for it! Now maybe you can argue that no one should admire him for living his life, but that’s a far cry from saying that the admirers are PITYING him. Just by being out there, in public, he’s helped others with the disease who also say “I don’t need to be embarrassed to live my life.” He’s happier, others are happier, everyone is learning, and no one is getting their heads rammed up their asses.

I’m not saying you were rude to the physician in person. Besides, you can think whatever you want to and no one’s going to be there to stop you. But you brought it to the pit and you wanted comments. THIS was the one example you gave us to comment on. The physician. It wasn’t a person who said a rude thing (yes, in my opinion). It wasn’t a person who was thinking a rude thing. We’re heaping shit upon him because he dared to open his mouth.

His comment is not analogous to whistling at a girl or commenting on the weight of someone. “You really need to lose weight” means you find fault with a total stranger That’s rude and yes, it’s best to keep your damn mouth shut. He didn’t find fault with you. He found courage. I’m sure there are some who have scoliosis and are too embarrassed to go out of their house for fear of being pitied. So he was admiring you for being you. Where’s the harm?

36

A perfect stranger walks up, points out an obvious difference that whiterabbit has by making some puffed-up statement about his admiration, and walks away feeling good about himself for it. Meanwhile, whiterabbit is left feeling like total crap. To me, that is more than pit-worthy. I think this man would have shown far greater respect by just allowing whiterabbit to exist peacefully like everybody else instead of congratulating her on being like everybody else, which implies that she’s not like everybody else, but she’s really giving it the old college try.

Whiterabbit, I can’t say I’ve ever experienced anything like that but I can only imagine that it left you feeling somewhat awkward and exposed (like those dreams where you’re the only one naked in the classroom) to your friends who obviously wouldn’t care if you had another head (as long as it paid for it’s share of lunch). I’m sure if a friend or even casual acquaintance had said that to you, it wouldn’t have gotten the same reaction because they’d actually admire the person that you are. Hell, for all that guy knows you could steal money from your grandmother to buy test results from little kids trying to support their drug habits. Not very admirable. I’ve noticed that people in general tend to cast a halo on those who have any kind of physical condition, I’m not exactly sure why that is. Anyway, I agree that it was totally inappropriate and demeaning and served only to make this guy feel good. I think you handled it with grace. It’s actually one of the most worthy things I’ve seen in the pit in a while.

37

Ender: *It wasn’t a person who said a rude thing (yes, in my opinion). It wasn’t a person who was thinking a rude thing. We’re heaping shit upon him because he dared to open his mouth. *

Yes we are, and rightly so. I agree with you that he was not necessarily thinking a rude thing. But as soon as he dared to open his mouth to make a very personal comment to a total stranger, he was saying a rude thing. Like that stranger and like a lot of other people, you don’t seem able to get past the misconception that “rude = insulting.” It is perfectly possible to be completely non-insulting—to be even admiring and complimentary—while still being rude, because you have no business making any remarks at all about that particular subject.

His comment is not analogous to whistling at a girl or commenting on the weight of someone. “You really need to lose weight” means you find fault with a total stranger That’s rude and yes, it’s best to keep your damn mouth shut.

Well, at least you get that part. But that doesn’t mean that it’s okay to make any personal remarks you choose, or any personal remarks at all, as long as you’re not actually “finding fault”. It’s not okay. It’s called being intrusive and impertinent.

*He didn’t find fault with you. He found courage. I’m sure there are some who have scoliosis and are too embarrassed to go out of their house for fear of being pitied. So he was admiring you for being you. Where’s the harm? *

Oh goody. As long as a total stranger is “admiring you for being you”, there’s no harm in their making whatever assumptions and comments they please about your personal characteristics? Here are some other sample remarks to total strangers that could also be classified as “admiring you for being you”:

“That dress is really well-chosen to set off your beautiful full breasts.”

“I bet you’re a wonderful person who truly loves the Lord.”

(To a black person in a suit and tie) “I think it’s really admirable that you managed to overcome the adversity and prejudice you must have faced to achieve a successful life.”

(To an older person with a walker) “You’re so brave to come out here like this and still try to get around by yourself.”

Yuck to them all. People, just stop it, okay? You don’t have the right to take impertinent liberties with perfect strangers just because you’re trying to express admiration for them. Everybody who does it should cut it out, and Ender, you should stop trying to excuse it. I think you’re right in pointing out that such people may genuinely have the best intentions in the world, but that doesn’t excuse them from recognizing that they’re still being rude. Maybe you personally would be okay with having a total stranger pay this kind of impertinent compliment to you—fine, no problem. But you can’t expect that nobody else should be upset by such rudeness, or to dismiss them as “overreacting” if they are.

38

I think I’m right behind whiterabbit on this one (and it’s perfectly legit to get moral support in the pit)

Correct me if I’m wrong, but part of the offensiveness is the unearned admiration. I mean, you might envy someone who won a million dollars in the lottery, but you admire someone who earns a million dollars, right?

“Admiring” whiterabbit for going to school, being out in public, and otherwise acting like everyone else is… bizarre. Do you admire people for breathing, too?

Although I do not have a visible difference, I did marry someone in that category. I get the “you must be a wonderful person to have married a man with XXX” (They usually guess wrong on the condition, too). ** ???What the fuck???** Are they going to “admire” me and call me “courageous” for having sex with the man, too? It feels about as intrusive as that sort of question. Being married to someone with a disability doesn’t make me a wonderful wife - or anything else.

I find it hard to convey how creepy and bizarre that sort of comment is. Excusing it as “best intentions” is like excusing a man putting a hidden camera in the ladies’ room as “he was admiring the female form”. Uh, yeah, but that’s still fucking creepy, OK?

Again, correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me whiterabbit would rather be admired for something remarkable she does rather than for mere existance.

39

YOU GOT IT! I don’t think you UNDERSTAND, but you GOT IT. He opened his mouth. He crossed the line. He had NO REASON to try to open a conversation that way. Hell, he had no reason to say that at all to a complete stranger.

Oh, gag me. He didn’t find any courage in me, unless he made the natural assumption that anybody with any sort of a disability MUST have extra courage to leave their fucking apartment and face the world. I don’t. Just because he thought he was paying a compliment doesn’t mean it’s not rude!

News flash – being put on a pedestal does not make life any easier. I didn’t get a fucking “Courage” medal from the fucking Wizard of Oz. I’m not some sort of superhuman genius whose intellectual abilities so overwhelmed any physical deficiencies that they HAD to enroll me.

40

I don’t have a disability myself (except for my personality), but I think I have an idea about what whiterabbit is talking about.

I think it’s like DeskMonkey said: how does this guy know she’s courageous? She could be a craven, black hearted bitch for all he knows. She could be financing her way through college through white slavery and selling adrenochrome to kindergarteners. But he saw someone with a disability, and automatically assumed that defined her personality. Instead of treating her like a person, he reduced her to nothing more than her medical condition.

I don’t put much stock in good intentions. Yes, this yob meant well, but he was either too self centered or too dumb to take fifteen seconds to consider how whiterabbit might feel about being singled out in front of her friends for the one part of her life that she least wants to dwell on. As nice as this guy wanted to be, what he did was astonishingly rude. I say contact Ms. Manners and have her put a hit out on the guy.