In the Bible, Jesus asks God to forgive us, and dies for our sins. Does the betrayal of Judas count among them, or is my understanding of “dying for our sins” flawed? Would he have been forgiven if he hadn’t (as some accounts say) not committed suicide?
“Dying for our sins” doesn’t mean our sins are automatically forgiven. There has to be some sort of repentance on the part of the sinner. The account that says Judas killed himself I believe also says he repented for what he did (throwing the money back) but then he messed up again in killing himself. :smack:
Whether more chances are given for repentance and making up for sin (e.g., purgatory) after death is of course an open question.
Well, one part of the Bible says that, the other says otherwise:
And he [Judas] cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Moved to Great Debates.
samclem Moderator, General Questions
According to many (but certainly not all) Christians, forgiveness of sin depends entirely on whether or not you have accepted Christ as your personal savior. On those terms, Judas’ outward actions are irrelevant.
Of course, there are nearly as many different interpretetations of scripture as there are people interpreting it, so the OP will be unlikely to get any sort of a concensus regarding the answer to their question.
My take on it is yes Jesus did, but at the same time Judas shipwrecked his faith. Some of the strongest language of the Bible goes to the security of salvation:
So salvation can not be lost, as it is God Himself holding on to us, and scriptures can not be broken.
He got re-entangled in this world:
He was obvious tormented by his actions and tried to buy his way out, but you can’t buy your way out of sin, out of desperation he took his own life. Deuteronomy has some of the effects of worshiping other gods, which money would be one such god, it includes things that sounds like demonization
suicide is not expressly forbidden in scriptures, but the body you have is not your own, but belongs to the Lord, it is really a sin to do something to your body that the Lord did not want you to do, but all sins except one is forgivable, and that one sin can not apply to the believer as it would contradict John 10:28,29 posted above, and again scriptures can not be broken.
I think I’m more interested in whether or not Jepitaph forgave god
when he offered his daughter for sacrifice in exchange for
a successful genocide of the Imminites. (OT) After all, one mysoginist
usually bear even more mysoginsts.
Since we’re talking of fiction, what’s happening
on All My Children?
Actually, the topic is not fiction, (the narrative of the story if one does not happen to believe it), but theology–the worldview of various people.
I expect the occasional snide comment, but I see no reason to derail the thread because one fails to recognize the topic.
Tommdeb, you just won me 5 bucks me because I said,
“Moderators tomndeb will me the first to reply.” TYVM!
I DO get the subject of the OP. As someone already pointed out,
the gospels tell a different ending to Judas than does Acts.
You all want to know if Judas was forgiven through Jesus’ death?
Whatever answer you come up with and believe in is correct.
This is not a great debate. It’s the equvallent of askng what
Agent Cooper really experienced when he entered the Black Lodge.
Whatever you think is correct.
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html for a good discussion as to whether a literal sacrifice was demanded or performed.
Oh yeah, “Jephthah” and “Ammonites”.
To the OP- if Judas truly repented, he may have been restored in the Afterlife. Jesus’ death redeems everything, but people have to accept redemption. It’s possible but not guaranteed that such opportunity may extend after mortal life.
Look, I get it that a person who does not believe any of the events narrated actually occurred, (or that that such a being as a god even exists), finds the discussion fruitless and silly.
That, however, does not make it less a debate for those who do share a belief in the topic. If the topic fails to interest you, ignore it. On the other hand, watching the debate unfold will at least give you an insight into how some portion of the population thinks.
I don’t know what happened to Judas after he died, or even before, but it really isn’t any of my business. The fact is, that’s between him and God and they’ll figure it out. (I’d guess they already have done.) But it isn’t my problem and it isn’t my life and Jesus really doesn’t want me to worry about it. It doesn’t affect what I’m supposed to do. I expect that if I’m supposed to know, I’ll find out when I get there.
We can debate this until the cows come home, but that isn’t really the mission we’ve been given.
“I tell no one any story but his own.” (Aslan, A Horse and His Boy)
“Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.” John 21:22
Judas “betrayal” was a instrumental part of the whole Jesus on the cross episode, which forms a fundamental aspect of Christian Faith. If so, the betrayal must have been part of Gods master plan - and if so, there was no betrayal and Judas should be swimming in wine somewhere quite close to the Golden Throne upstairs - for no Judas - no Christianity…
What’s there to forgive?
Using this logic the entire creation and fall of mankind and the fall of some of the angels were a part of God’s master plan, but this does not negate free will. Satan had a choice to make and he decided to cause the fall of man and, through his principalities, crucify a innocent man (big mistake for his kingdom). It’s not that it is part of the master plan but God’s plan is above our free will and will succeed in spite of it.
I thought it was God’s plan to have Jesus crucified, and that was the reason Jesus went along with it. If this was the devil’s plan, why did Jesus go along with it, instead of escaping?
kanicbird’s a Witness IIRC - this point of doctrine is a major difference of theirs from either catholic or Orthodox Christianity.
To answer abel29a, it makes a difference what Judas’s intentions were - and had he had a quiet word with Jesus, along the lines of “I know what must happen for your plan to be fulfilled. I will be the agent of it, if you need me to,” that would have been quite different from what he actually did, and there would indeed be nothing to forgive. But if Judas actually acted for his own purposes, and unwittingly did what needed to be done, that is another thing - and Jesus himself said that there would be woe upon who betrayed the Son of Man, even though it was necessary.
I do not recall the exact quote at this moment but there is a quote Of Jesus thanking the father that all were saved except one, so the prophecies could be fullfilled. Another that it would have been better if he had not been born.
Jesus was also quoted as saying that he spoke in Parables because if he didn’t some would understand and be saved.
I saw a documentary on National Geographic about the rediscovered Gospel of Judas, in which it was claimed that the former is pretty much what happend - that Judas indeed reluctantly went along with playing the part of traitor in order to oblige the command of Jesus. Altough I’ve later heard bad things about the translation used by the documentary, it still made for a fascinating film.