I’m not really seeing the point of this.
The rings are limited only by the imagination of the person wielding them. Put someone with an active enough mind and they will be unstoppable. That they aren’t shows the people that do have the rings aren’t all there or, more likely, the writers just didn’t give them the full gamut of abilities they’re able to use because they need *some *sort of conflict to sell the books.
Professor X takes the cake. He will always be as powerful as he needs to be. He can take over your mind, yo. (Unless you are Magneto and then he just has one of your lackeys crush your head.)
Seriously, no one can take out Prof. X.
If you think about shooting/stabbing/zapping/hexing/crushing/annoying him you will live the rest of your days as a six year old girl.
I wouldn’t even include the ‘outside Superman’ caveat.
While neither of them have any real upper bound to their powers, GL can imitate pretty much all of Superman’s powers, save, possibly, the heat/X-Ray vision (although, given other powers the rings have demonstrated, I doubt even they’re outside a GL’s repetior), and various GLs have demonstrated powers Superman doesn’t have, such as the ability to go intangible.
GLs are, I’d say, the most powerful non-cosmic/deific characters in the DCU.
And Lochdale, do you have a genius level IQ, the best education the Wayne family’s considerable wealth can buy, and access to all the gadgetry, weaponry, scientific equipment, computer equipment, vehicles, researchers, informers, etc, the millionaire head of a successful tech company can buy/hire/build? Have you trained yourself to the highest level of physical perfection and mental discipline a human can attain? Do you forgo any sort of personal life to maintain those resources and training while spending every night fighting crime?
If not, Batman owns you before you realise the fight has started.
‘If he’s prepared’ only comes into play when writers feel the need to put him in a team with, or fighting against, the near omnipotent characters like Superman and have to come up with an excuse for how he doesn’t get his ass handed to him or be put totally in the other hero’s shadow.
Damn straight!
Plus, you lack the will of a warrior.
In Batman’s defense (not that he needs it, since he was prepared… nevermind), he’s a totally different character than most other DC titles. He’s a crimefighter, putting down what are essentially petty thugs. His peers are guys that take out cosmic beings capable of blowing up planets.
It’s not that Batman is overrated… it’s just that the crappy writers at DC took the abilities that made him successful against petty thugs - his intellect and conditioning, basically - and pumped them up, so they can include him in the big league battles.
Nope but I’m a human being and so is he therefore I could take him. Batman is merely human and I cannot suspend disbeliefe so much as to believe that he could survive one night much less have a “crime-fighting career”. With Superman you have to accept that he is an alien who was raised on earth and thus his incredible powers. Thor is the God of Thunder etc. etc. You can suspend disbeliefe with these characters and accept that the characters can take a bullet or a bomb or whatever. Batman can’t and he would die horribly. Every here of a lucky punch? Have you ever actually been in a fight? If you have been in a real fight then you know why Batman is such a silly character. I’ve seen a seriously prepared guy go down hard to a lucky punch. In a fight, it is just so random that you never know and Batman, as a human, wouldn’t have a chance no matter how well prepared he was. Hell, have you ever played a contact sport? People slip and fall and injure themselves all the time. Batman could just blow a knee and then he is dead. Again, with Superman, this sort of thing is removed because we have suspended disbeliefe and accepted that he is the man of steel. You can easilly enter into the realm of fantasy with Superman et al. Batman doesn’t own anything. Genius level IQ blah, blah, blah. He’d die. Very quickly and very horribly.
Speaking of imagination, what about the Absorbing Man? Lots of things he could do if he was clever. He could become a rare disease or gas molecules to posion people. He could absorb GL’s ring and will himself into anything. Potential world-beater there.
Good point Spoofe but it has been taken so far beyond that it has become a farce. Also, I doubt he could take a thug. Again a lucky punch or a stray bullet and it is all over. If he’s prepared my arse.
And say, what about the Atom? I don’t remember who drew those comics, but he was the man. The Atom can win any fight and I don’t know that I can think of a situation that he couldn’t get out of by shrinking/growing/shifting mass in the right way.
Unless he messed with Prof. X, then he’s toast.
No, you couldn’t. You’re neither equipped nor skilled enough to take him.
If you’re lucky, you can catch him unawares and shoot him.
If you’re lucky. But getting the drop on a man who a) is a genius, b) is paranoid, c) is the world’s greatest detective, d) is trained in several martial disciplines, e) wears kevlar, and f) has allies who fit most of those descroptors, as well…
Well, if you think you can pull that off, you’re either deluded or have superpowers.
I guess I’m not really sure why you have such a problem with Batman, Lochdale. I mean, it seems like your criticisms of him could apply not only to every other non-powered superhero, but also to a lot of the lower-powered ones as well. I mean, how has no one killed Angel, Beast or Cyclops by now? Blue Beetle? Heck, shouldn’t Spider-Man have taken a bullet through the head right now?
I’ll be the first person to decry Grant Morrison’s stupid “Batman is the LORD” routine, but Batman as a concept doesn’t seem any more absurd than any other hero.
Anyway, back to the thread.
I disagree with the Iron Man thing. If the Invisible Woman was feeling creative and evil, she could take down just about anyone (“Oops, looks like I just created a force field sphere inside your brain”).
I’m also not sure why we’re not counting Flash - he’s fast, yeah, but he’s also just as vulnerable as any regular human, which I would think takes him out of the omnipotence/invincibility catagory. So if he counted, and if we’re not counting powerful magicians, Superman-level characters, Green Lanterns, heralds of Galactus and other cosmic heroes, I’d go with him. If we’re not counting Flash, I’m tempted to go with the Invisible Woman (although Professor X might be a concern). In fact, if we’re not counting Flash (Wally West), I’d say either Kid Flash or Jay Garrick.
What about Black Bolt? He’s quite powerful (although not, to my knowledge, Superman-level) normally, and if he decides to so much as whisper your name, you’re pretty much dead.
I have a chance though as do most humans against another human. Plenty of very able people have been killed so it isn’t impossible. If I wanted to kill Batman then I would have a chance of doing so. He could be set up, he could be car bombed. Lots and lots of ways to do it which is why he is such a silly character. Even in a one-on-one fight the chances are I’m dead but I ask again, have you ever been in a fight? It just doesn’t happen the way you think it does in the comics or the movies. I’ve a seen a former European heavy-weight kickboxer almost get killed outside Fibber McGee’s in Dublin. Batman could slip, one good punch and his skull caves in (see above). A stray bullet richochets and hits him. A hand grenade explodes near him and he is ripped to shreds by shrapnel etc. etc.
Again, I can suspend disbeliefe for Thor and Spiderman and Supes but this is ridiculous. Think about if for just a moment, take the toughest guys you can think of and none of them would survive fighting more than one opponent or fighting armed opponets. Bruce Lee would be torn apart if 10 gangsters rushed him. End of story. Take an olympic athelete, the pinnacle of human perfection right? Even they fail. Even they fall. Batman is human. Think of any human doing what he does. He streches credulity too far imho and no matter what nonsense you spout about training etc. he wouldn’t last a second.
As for the world’s greatest detective? That was Sherlock Holmes and even he knew his limitations.
Because with all of the above you can suspend disbeliefe. You can say to yourself, Ok that makes sense because he has spidersense of because he has wings or because he can shoot frigging energy from his eyes! You divorce yourself from reality and put yourself in the context of the superhero. You cannot reasonably do that with Batman.
Further, other than Spiderman, all of the above tend not to fight thugs but other superpowered beings with similar powers. Batman is just a random idiot in a cape. He’s no different than that fellow who climbed up to the balcony of Buckingham Palace. See how effective he was in fighting off the guards and escaping :rolleyes:
Sorry should have been this quote :smack:
You have a very small chance. But by the same token you have a chance against Superman, Green Lantern, or Wonder Woman.
You are, in fact, dealing with the world’s greatest detective. A detective who does, in fact, know his limitations.
Your assumptions seem to be based on the idea that Batman is a complete idiot.
Batman will not get into a fight if there’s a significant chance he’ll lose unless he can’t help it. He fights dirty. He finds out as much about his quarry and any potential battlegrounds as possible. He knows when to get help. (Robin, Nightwing, Oracle - who is also useful for the previous steps - the Outsiders, the Justice League…) He’s equipped with weapons, soft body armour (and hard body armour per Miller), and top-level fighting skills.
If you get the drop on Batman, you’re either very good or very lucky.
By your own logic, Batman’s survival isn’t impossible even if he didn’t have all the advantages he has.
You think you have a chance against someone who has you outclassed and outgunned on every level?
So does he.
On the other hand, he does what he can to put the advantage on his side as possible. And he does have most people who doesn’t have Superpowers outclassed on every level.
There’s a few mere mortals who can own him, but they are, on the whole, on the same side - or at least believe he’s useful enough to give him free reign. Batman’s yet to deal with any of the exceptions without a more powerful ally to even the odds. Lex Luthor (who, despite being a mere mortal is a credible threat to Superman), the Ultra-Humanite, or quite a number of others could take him, but they don’t deal with Batman as an individual. And the reason they can take him is they have all the same advantages as him - they’re smart, they have access to major resources (including people to do their fighting for them if they don’t have the same ‘peak of physical perfection’ advantage - and the brains to use them rather than taking him hand-to-hand.). The major thing that keeps them from taking him is that a) they have no motivation to go after him, specifically, and b) he knows when he’s outclassed and will leave or call in backup (preferably both) when he is, rather than relying on luck.
Of Batman’s personal villains, the most credible threat in a fight is Ra’s al Ghul. Ra’s is smart. Ra’s has significant resources. Ra’s is in amazing physical condition. He knows who Batman is, so has a good chance of taking him unaware. But he also has a daughter who is very fond of Batman, so killing him would not be to his advantage. He has taken him a few times, though.
But Batman’s enemies - even Ra’s - aren’t threats by being able to take him in a fight. They’re threats by being able to cause trouble before he can find them.
Dr. Strange and Reed Richards should get together and buy him a shirt that says “second place is the first loser”, I think. That said, didn’t Dr. Doom get sent to hell in the “Unthinkable” plotline?
bamf
My Darn Snake Legs, Professor X was already ruled out as being too powerful for the competition. I think Batman should be ruled out to as his “if he’s prepared.” comes pretty damn close to omnipotence. And also to get the batman out of this thread. Seriously, this thread is two pages on batman and three posts of “other.”
As far as the O.P., I can only go with marvel because my d.c. knowledge is slim. I’d have to go with either Wolverine or Spider Man.
Spider Man and his danger sense could take him far against the middleweight set. In a pinch, his strength, speed, agility, and mind would help him finish.
In Wolverines case, it’s the healing factor and unbreakable cut through anything claws. His willingness to kill is an added bonus.
This is a really, really odd thread.
I mean, we’ve already disqualified all of the JLA, half the Avengers and X-Men, and are seriously starting to debate relative lightweights like Spider-Man and Wolverine.
In comics, there’s always been a class of heroes who are cosmic or mythic forces in and of themselves. The Spectre, the Beyonder, the Endless, Swamp Thing, anyone with the Infinity Gauntlet. These are the omnipotents, and they ain’t hard to distinguish from the others. If your book is more about philosophy and morals than fighting crime or other credible threats to your personal survival, you might be a cosmic hero.
Superman, Hulk, Green Lantern, Prof X, Flash et al aren’t limitless. Superman’s powers are enormous, but there’s still only a smallish list of them. He can move planets, but he can’t edit time and space on a whim. A Green Lantern is theoretically omnipotent, but using the ring must be really hard, since they seem to mostly just make force fields, energy blasts and simple contructs. It’s hard to outwit someone who can read and alter minds, but Magneto’s done all right over the years. Crib his helmet design and go to town. Etc, etc, etc.
Here’s the Contenders, as I see it:
Superman
Hulk
Flash (any, but Wally’s undisputably the tops)
Thor
Professor X
Green Lantern (any)
Wonder Woman
Martian Manhunter
Darkseid
Doomsday
Dr. Doom
Of that list, I have to give it to Superman.
Actually, we’re supposed to be debating the lighter weight classes of the hero spectrum. Heck, the title says “Discounting the Near Omnipotent/Invincible.”
The thread just got a wee bit sidetracked on who to discount as being in the overpowered category.
No offense, but that’s kind-of my feeling about this whole exercise. We’re just supposed to keep guessing or speculating until we find a character that sneaks in just below your arbitrarily defined “line” between “powerful” and nigh-omnipotent?
If you could clearly define that line for us, it might help.
I discount the Endless as cosmic beings (no, seriously!) because with rare exceptions, they don’t seem able to do all that much beyond ‘perform their function’. Their anthropomorphic aspects almost seem like side-effects. Lucifer’s got Mephisto as an opposite, and Swamp Thing has Man-Thing. (Granted, at the height of Swampy’s powers, he was indeed a nearly cosmic being)
I’m not going to harp on this issue too much more, honest. DC does have some nearly-cosmic types like Superman, Green Lantern, etc. Marvel’s got quite a few as well, though. The Silver Surfer and the other ex-Heralds of Galactus. Quasar and the Quantum Bands. (Seriously, JLA vs. Avengers should’ve pitted Q-man against GL, not Photon/Captain Marvel.) Thor and the Asgardians, which play a much more visible role in Marvel books that the Aesir of DC. Hercules. The Hulk. Magneto, before he became a wuss. Thanos. Dr. Doom. Dr. Strange (who outclasses Fate as a sorcerer any day of the week.) Franklin Richards. Jean Grey. Professor Xavier. The High Evolutionary. Rachel Summers. Nate Grey. Cable. The Juggernaut. Gladiator.
And seriously, Batman’s infallibility is no different than Spider-Man’s. Each of them take knocks in their own book, and when they function in a team, become the “untouchable” guy. Spidey because of his powers, and Bats because of his tactics. Or Deadpool, who apparently can regenerate from being digested.