I take issue with a lot of the things you say in comics threads. Memorably, the Superman v. Thor discussion.
But this… well.
One, Sherlock Holmes was a fictional character. Just like Batman. So, to an extent, the greater of them would be decided by whoever was writing at the time.
Two, the Batman writers acknowledged Sherlock Holmes as an influence on Batman very memorably, back in the 80’s, when Batman and friends ran into a very well-preserved ancient man in Tibet, wearing a deerstalker cap.
Three, Sherlock Holmes knew his limitations? Moreso than Batman? Self-awareness isn’t a hallmark of most cocaine addicts…
Four, Holmes was quite the skilled combatant, but preferred not to use such methods. And stronger than he looked, as well. For example, an irate man once threatened Holmes and Watson while twisting their iron fireplace poker into a curve, to demonstrate his strength. After the man departed, Holmes calmly and quickly straightened the poker.
Second that Holmes was strong and a skilled combatant. He was marksman enough with a revolver to be able to shoot Queen Victoria’s initials into the wall of his apartment. There was also reference to his having a knowledge of baritsu (apparently a form of jiu-jitsu).
I also take issue with some of your comments in comic threads. To be perfectly honest with you I thought you lost the plot entirely with “Superman is the new mythology” line you were following in the Thor v. Superman thread. That said, I’m sure I wandered off the beaten path myself.
Obviously they are both fictional characters but Holmes was created as the world’s greatest detective whereas it was something that was just sort of tacked on to Batman to give him some gravitas. With Sherlock Holmes we saw the methodology he used to solve cases. The process was as much of a part of the story as the plot itself. We just don’t have that with Batman. Further, Holmes used violence as a last resort and it was always somewhat realistic. This isn’t the case with Batman.
Put another way, unlike Superman, we can contextualize Batman’s “powers”. That is, we can fathom the world’s greatest fighter ro whatever he is and put him in real life situations. We can also compare him to other great fighters. For example, Muhammad Ali was probably the greatest boxer in history. Even Ali though was beatable and even Ali made mistakes. Could Ali jump into a warehouse full of thugs and beat all of them up? What if they were armed? Ali would, of course, die horribly. The same could be said for a Bruce Lee or a Chuck Norris or any of the pride fighters. Extremely tough guys but still human and still very, very beatable particularly if I am armed. We can compare them to Batman and we can see why Batman would be slaughtered. Seriously, just think about it for a moment and you’ll see why it is so difficult to suspend disbliefe that Batman could survive one night in Gotham city much less fight aliens in space.
We can’t similarly contextualize Superman because we have nothing to compare him to. As such, it is much easier to suspend disbelief and accept that bullets can bounce off of him and that he can bend steel, fly etc.
So let’s step back and say that Batman is the most highly trained athelete in history. He’s as agile as a gymnast, as fast as Ali and can fight like Chuck Norris. He has the mind of Shelock Holmes and is super-paranoid. So what. He still dies from a stray bullet. He could still take an errant punch and he’s either out cold or dead. He’s still human so anything more than a one on one or a one v. two and he will most likely be killed. We can place Batman in the real world and see that he wouldn’t last a day no matter how much “training” he has had.
Not to be snarky, but if you don’t see the point in posting, then why are you?
My reply to **Reeder **was about the point of arguing the Green Lantern’s power levels as it seems pretty obvious to me that anyone with one of those rings is, for all intents and purposes, a god. Taking it out of context and then applying it to my thread as a whole seems a bit disingenuous.
If I could clearly define the line and have a cut-off, don’t you think I’d have some sort of idea about the answer? I’m just curious as to the consensus on the most powerful reasonably powered hero is. “Reasonably powered” is obviously subjective but I didn’t think it would be so difficult to understand that there are obvious classes of heroes and comparing Superman with that dude with eyeballs on his fingers is an exercise in futility.
Because it didn’t strike me until I was already involved.
I quoted it because it seemed a succinct way of putting the realization I’d come to.
Well, people have put forth answers, only to be shot down. I think Superman’s reasonably powered. He’s my answer.
And if these classes of heroes are so obvious… why can’t we define them?
I enjoy comic discussions, of course, and I find you a reasonable person, I just think we might need some objective criteria to define the cut-off. ‘Can’t survive unaided in a star or the vacuum of space’ would be a good one, for instance.
Just wondering if it’s actually possible to have a comic book thread that doesn’t a) contain the phrase “Batman, if he’s prepared” and b) boil down to a spitting match about why Batman can do anything.
Seriously, if I asked what kind of paperstock the new OHOTMU was printed on, someone would walk out offended that Batman beat Captain America (which I still think was horse pucky, but that’s what fan voting gets ya )
False. Many Batman stories focus on his detective methods.
You’re selecting one of Batman’s abilities and ignoring the others. In addition to being one of the greatest martial artists in the world, Batman has a psychological obsession with Justice that makes him far more determined than the average person; he has a keen tactical mind; he’s mastered the art of stealth; and he has an array of gadgets and widgets.
The stealth point is especially important. While there are exceptions, Batman’s usual methods for taking down large groups of enemies is to divide and conquer. Taking them down in groups of two or three, quietly.
Body Armor. Built into the costume.
And of course, he has been knocked out once or twice. One can’t prepare for everything.
So the most competent warrior in the world, and fighting three people - and he’d most likely be killed. You’re saying that - in the terms of your own example - the greatest martial artist who ever lived would stand a greater than 50% chance of dying every time he faced more than two opponents.
You would honestly put Superman in the same league of heroes as anyone from the X-Men? If so, you and I have fundamental differences in what we percieve as reasonable and we’re never going to agree. Superman is the ***epitome ***of near-omnipotence.
And while it’s obvious that there’re multiple classes of heroes, the distinctions between them aren’t always clear. Think of it as the color spectrum… while red and purple are at opposite ends of the spectrum, you’ve got orange, yellow, and blue in between with varying shades between them as well.
Can you tell me where red ends and orange begins? Or where green finally turns into blue? Once the color’s completley changed, it’s obvious, but the hues in-between aren’t.
That was in reply to the second to last post by Gamera, obviously. And can we take the Batman hijack to another thread? While I like reading it, I’m afraid my OP is going to get lost in the shuffle and I really am curious about what people think.
Where the hell is Fenris? And **Askia **needs to get back in here too.
Black Bolt should definitely be on any list. He once knocked out the Hulk with a single whispered word. If his power at its lowest level is that strong, he could presumedly take down anyone he wasn’t holding back.
While there’s merit to that argument, a person who, analogously, wanted the ‘lowest wavelength color that isn’t red’ could say ‘Red begins at X wavelength’ - it could be precisely defined - even though it’s just his view of what red is.
And the classes of superheroes aren’t so clearly defined.
As an aside, I’ve always wondered about superhero classification systems that crop up in the comics from time to time. Apollo in the Authority is referred to as ‘Majestic-class’ but that may be an offhand reference to Mr. Majestic and not an official system; Xavier is an Alpha (or Omega) class telepath. The powers in Powers have ‘levels’. I wonder how the respective fictional organization who came up with those decided on the cut-offs?
Xavier was already disqualified in my OP though and I wouldn’t consider Jean to be on Supes’ level unless Jean’s now got the full powers of the Phoenix which might be possible… I don’t know; I’ve not read any non-Ultimate Marvel book in close to a decade.
And Storm? I’d consider her at around the cut-off but right below it. Maybe she’s the answer I’m looking for.
So what. You’ve clearly never been in a fight in your life. Even the best martial artist would have difficulty with three willing opponents. Ali might not survive a fight with 3 willing opponents. One stray punch, kick or gouge and the fight ends, regardless of how single-minded you are. You simply do not respond to my argument that all of Batman’s powers could exist on earth and yet we have no Batman. Why? Because he is totally unrealistic. You cannot rationally suspend disbelief when you know someone like Batman just couldn’t survive in the real world. With Superman you accpet that he is an alien and then go from there. There is no such ability with Batman. We can analyze his powers in the real world and we can see that he dies. End of story.
Seriously, you know nothing about fighting. I saw one of the best fighters on the planet almost get killed in Dublin against two guys. It’s not very practical to use martial arts in a sudden, violent situation. Any mistake and it’s over for a fighter. That can happen to even the most prepared and the odds are it would happen to Batman very quickly indeed. A good martial artist will avoid a fight and will definitely avoid fighting a group of armed men. Think about what you are saying for a moment. I’d laugh but dementia isn’t really funny at all.
As a follow-up to my most recent post, yes martial arts are very handy in certain situations (I’ve been kick-boxing for more than 20 years) and a good practitioner can be lethal. That does not mean, however, that even the best martial-artist is invulnerable. Most martial-artists wouldn’t go near a greater than a two on one fight and none of them would tangle with an armed opponent unless it was vitally necessary.
Put another way, I’m 6’1, 200lbs and I still spar. I can punch and kick properly and I have won pretty much won every street fight I’ve ever been in. That said, I recognize the inherent dangers of street fighting and how one mistake or the slightest turn of fortune can leave one in serious trouble. It’s very rare that you will take someone out with one punch or kick and even when you land a good punch you are always open to the counter attack particularly if you are fighting more than one opponent. I am very confident in my ability to defend myself but I would NEVER fight more than one opponent or an armed opponent. Even the most highly trained Navy Seals get killed by amateurs. Batman is no different. He wouldn’t last.
Also, Kevlar amour is fairly heavy which would slow down his movements. If you don’t have real size a lack of speed would finish you off.
Jean’s dead right now, but there’s a Phoenix arc coming up. She’s gone through a variety of power levels, as well - with and without the Phoenix - but Jean, at her peak, has nearly Xavier’s telepathy combined with potent telekinetic powers.
Storm can achieve massive weather effects, depending on who’s writing her.
Personally, I was expecting your cutoff to be in the neighborhood of Rogue or Wonder Woman, both less potent than Ororo.
By the way CandidGamera, I am impressed with your encyclopedic knowledge of comics so I do hope I don’t accidentally offend you with my comments. I just feel strongly about the Batman issue (in case you didn’t notice).
This is going to be my last on this subject in this thread, as I don’t wish to detract from Aesiron’s OP.
Actually, that’s not true. Batman’s gadgetry is based on the advanced science of the DCU for which we have no proper parallel, including his armored costume.
Really? How do you know he was one of “the best in the planet”? Unsupported claim. And you fail to realize - it’s not just about the fighting. Not even close. It’s about controlling the situation. Try to think beyond your fists.
While we’re all nearly as proud of you as you are of yourself, please do try to remember that we are talking about comic books. Fantasies. Everything that happens is at the scriptwriter’s whim. There are no “stray bullets.” No"wild punches." Trying to impose reality on what happens in a Batman comic book is pointless. Just as an aside, you’ve done so much bitching about Batman in this thread and claimed that you could defeat him so many times that one almost gets the feeling that you are jealous of a fictional character.
He was a former European heavy-weight kick-boxing champion. A world class Dutch fighter.
This is where you are most fundamentally wrong (and it also proves my assertion that you have never been in a real fight in your life). You can’t control the situation in a fight. It simply doesn’t work like that. You can set it up so that you have an advantage but that’s about it. Further, guns are such a wildcard that they take away any “control” you may have in a situation. Violence indicates that a situation has gone beyond your control. All sorts of things can then happen. Even if Batman were the world’s best fighter he would eventually lose out to the law of averages which say that something random would happen. Once that happens Batman is toast. Chances are though, it would happen within his first 2-3 fights.
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