The problem is though that it is not reasonable to suspend disbelief and accept Batman. A fantasy should have at least some grounding in reality or a plausible basis for deviating from the norm (a la Superman). Batman has neither.
You’re funny. You think you’re the first to think of this stuff? In Batman Year One, Bruce Wayne loses…why? Because he, like you, thinks with his fists and not 3 steps ahead. In Miller’s Dark Knight Returns, Batman loses, is nearly killed…why? Because he like you, was trying to punch his way out of a situation.
He eventually won those battles, because he used is brains has his PRIMARY weapon and his fists, as tools. Not the way you’re portraying the character, DESPITE being given details and suggestions as to how the character operatives, within its’ world.
You keep crippling the character in order to make your point. I don’t know why you can’t see that.
You keep harping on how in a street fight you witnessed, the “champ” got beat. Fair enough…let me ask you this: Would your champ had lost if he had tear gas? Would he have lost, if he had electro-knuckles? Would he had lost if he a weighted cape with sharpened egdes on it? Those “Tools” are in Batman’s utlity belt EVERYDAY. You can’t have a honest discussion about the character if you ignore his tools.
You are welcome to your opinion, but you are being extremely dishonest, if you limit Batman to a guy who just punches things.
Granted, I’m not an expert on DC but Wonder Woman always seemed like she was a female Superman to me and I would have put her above the threshold.
She’s less powerful than Storm?
I think way back when…the X-men face Dr. Doom who encased Storm in a metallic shell. This triggered her phobia and unable to release it caused her to ‘evolve’ to a ‘god-like’ state, once she was freed and able to react. This was after Phoneix died and there was a “not again…” vibe the team expressed.
I think it’s always been implied that Storm has never reached her full potential and that uncontrolled, she could reach the ‘elemental’ state of being.
BTW: no one has mentioned ICEMAN yet…who should be for the most part be invincible, if he had the brains to use his powers to their fully potential. i.e not JUST a covering of ice, but ALL three states of matter.
As anyone can tell you, I know next to nothing about any of this. However, this caught my eye.
Doesn’t this put Batman at a security level pretty similar to, say, the President of the US with all of his Secret Service dudes? They are going to be obsessed with keeping the POTUS safe, armed with weapons and gadgets, far more determined than the average person, perhaps not the best tactical mind, but lots of resources, lots of warm bodies to implement various tactics, plus some “armor” for the president and the agents.
Not at all actually. All I am saying is that there are just too many variables that Batman couldn’t control. These variables are the very essence of a fight. Even with tear gas and all of his other paraphanelia he can still be taken down by an errant bullet or a lucky punch. No amount of training or preparation can remove this variable. The odds would catch up to Batman (sooner rather than later) and he would either be maimed or dead. Batman surviving simply isn’t credible which makes the suspension of disbelief impossible. In your heart of hearts you should recognize that a Batman figure would have no chance of surviving in real life.
Navy Seals are highly trained, they have the best gadgets availabel and they are always prepared yet they die in missions. Batman is no different.
Matter of opinion, I suppose. Wondy’s not as physically invulnerable or strong as Superman (though she’s no slouch in either department) - compare Marvelites like Namor, Colossus, or Ms. Marvel/Rogue. She can fly, and has some unusual mystical resistances on account of being created from mystical clay… but she’s not in Superman’s league.
Anecdotally, Storm beat Wondy’s behind in the Marvel vs. DC books way-back-when.
It does - if you mean the President in the DCU. Keep in mind, always, that the comic book universes (all of them, just about) have superscience. Which means that body armor that’s a hindrance in the real world can be made into a perfectly flexible and freemoving bodystocking there; battery-powered headbands can block telepathic probes; etc.
The President in the DCU has access to a number of covert organizations, including the Suicide Squad; and it should be noted that, while Luthor was PotUS, he used the Checkmate organization to seriously screw with Batman/Bruce Wayne for just such a reason.
The advantages Batman has over such elite bodyguards becomes smaller - but it boils down to his intelligence and his “intelligence” - he has a greater ability to gather information on their capabilities than vice versa.
By the way, my above comments can be extended to the Punisher, Nighthawk and most especially Hawkeye.
Can you expand on your Iceman theory Holmes?
Also, why isn’t Rogue higher on the list? Does her power absorption have a cap?
Moderator Hat On:
Lochdale, I’ll read that as an apology and recognition that you’re putting one toe over a grey fuzzy line. Personal insults are not permitted in this forum. Drawing conclusions about the personal life experiences of a poster here comes perilously close (especially in this instance) to being an insult.
You want to discuss these fictional characters, by all means do so. But don’t get annoyed at another individual who has more tolerance for fantasy than you do.
No one in their right mind thinks that Batman is realistic. Nor any of the dozens of movies in which the hero single-handedly fights of half a dozen ruffians. We all KNOW about reality, Lochdale, and people who read comics or watch those movies KNOW that they’re indulging in fiction. So, don’t get your knickers all in a twist. Cool it. OK?
In the Age of Apolypse storyline and one X-men issue( Emma Frost takes over Drake’s body) Iceman’s powers are expanded and used in other ways then just making snowballs.
In one issue Iceman’s chest is smashed in…showing that he really isn’t coated in ice, but make of “living” ice itself. If that’s the case, he should be able to change form: solid, liquid and gas. He should be able to regenerate himself from the water in atmosphere, he should be able to transform to a gasoeus state or liquid state. Emma Frost did something similar to that when she took control of his body in X-men 314.
Get smashed and simply regenerate himself. This happened in one of the Age of Apolypse issues.
I’m weak on the actual SCIENCE, but Iceman SHOULD be one the most powerful characters ever created, but no-one seems to have the ability to correctly visualize his powers.
I disagree with that. Post-Crisis, Wonder Woman has been defined as second in strength only to Superman, meaning she’s stronger than Captain Marvel, who routinely fights Supes to a standstill (and who, in fact, knocked Supes out with a couple sucker punches). She’s also not quite as fast as Superman, but she can keep up with speedsters without too much trouble. And the biggest clincher of all is that she has a ton of warrior training that she regularly employs and constantly practices (plus the tiara, bracelets, and lasso). Almost every time they’ve squared off post-Crisis, they’ve been nigh-equals (with Superman definitely more powerful, but not overly so) except for some particularly stupid examples of Superman-worship wherein he’s suddenly several times more powerful than everyone (I recall something in that stupid crossover where Joker takes over the world where the entire Justice Leage tries to restrain Superman and can’t, but that runs pretty contrary to what his usual power level seems to be). She’s definitely way stronger than Namor or Colossus (in an early Byrne issue, she tossed a subway car into the sun, and she helped Superman and Martian Manhunter move the Earth back into orbit in The Obsidian Age).
They’re going to be facing off again in the next issue of Superman, so we’ll see how that goes. The last time they fought (that I recall) was after Our Worlds at War when Circe was controlling Supes (or something, I can’t remember) and Wonder Woman had a heck of a time getting him under control, but she definitely wasn’t massively outclassed or anything.
And the Marvel vs. DC Storm vs. Wonder Woman thing was the absolute best example of why the voting thing should never have happened. It was even worse than Lobo vs. Wolverine, and that’s saying something.
Lochdale, it seems to me as if you have a somewhat mistaken view of how Batman actually operates. You make it sound as if the way he operates is like he did in the 60’s Batman show - run into a warehouse and start punching guys as they dance around him. He’s much more likely to hang out in the shadows and pick off bad guys one by one, often not using his fists at all. Yeah, in real life, such a tactic would eventually get you killed, but by that logic, eventually Superman would be exposed to kryptonite and there wouldn’t be anyone around to miraculously save him at the last minute.
I also think that Batman is more logical than some heroes by your criteria. As I mentioned before, neither Angel nor Cyclops (for example) have any attributes that keep someone from popping a bullet in the back of their skulls, nor are they ever as careful or as smart as Batman (and heck, Angel is a giant target whose “powers” are actually a hindrance if he’s not in some huge space - I’m pretty sure someone said this stuff in that Weakest Superheroes thread from a year or so ago), and they haven’t been killed (well, not permenantly) either.
In the current run of X-Men, Iceman has experienced a secondary mutation and now his body is made of ice. I’m not sure on what sort of form requirements there are (if he can reform after being melted, shattered, etc.) but he was knocked into a lake in one issue and used the water to increase his size, strength, etc. Even the Juggernaut (who seems to have lost a bit of power) had to admit that he kicked much ass.
See, now, we’re running into a problem here. Power levels fluctuate for a character between different writers. Captain Marvel is almost assuredly stronger than Wonder Woman. He’s almost identically strong to Superman based on what we’ve seen. I’d lump Martian Manhunter in the stronger-than-Diana category, too.
(We repeatedly have been hit over the head with the J’onn-is-the-strongest-of-us line of late)
My reasoning for lumping Diana a tier below those giants of the DCU is because Batman can spar with her, with no tricks or dirty fighting, and do reasonably well. As can Black Canary, who in a recent issue of Birds of Prey, knocked Diana on her star-spangled butt in a sparring match.
Didn’t know that…however that goes to my point. Stop limiting his powers to making ICE. How does he make the ice? Is it from the absorption of heat? Then he’s playing with engery, reshaping it with is mind…is he slowing down atoms, electrons? Can he be able to speed them up too?
Melted? So what? Vaporized? So What? Shouldn’t be a problem… We already have characters that have complete control of their molecules. Sandman, Nitro, the Flash…the earth is 3/4 water…Iceman should be ni-indestructible.
Ah, but she also spars with Superman (some Superman Christmas issue from a few years ago) and is capable of knocking him on his ass. I think this just means that she has a great degree of control over how much strength she exerts (she did, after all, grow up sparring with other Amazons, who are nowhere near as strong as she is.
As long as the official line remains that she’s second in strength only to Supes, that’s what I’m sticking with. In current continuity, I haven’t seen Captain Marvel or J’onn really do anything that Wonder Woman (especially post-Byrne) couldn’t, based on the things we’ve seen her do (the examples mentioned above, not to mention holding up a Heavenly Chariot during Morrison’s run and taking on a Doomsday clone during Byrne’s run on her book). The possible exception to that is Captain Marvel knocking out Supes with his sucker punches, but there’s reason to believe that magic had something to do with that, and Wonder Woman hasn’t really been in a position where she’s had to see how long it would take her to knock out a Superman caught unawares.
As mystically animated clay, Wonder Woman’s every bit as physically magical as the Big Red Cheese. And where are you getting this ‘official line’ from? It’s been stated repeatedly (at least twice - once in JLA and once very recently in the pages of one of the Superman titles) that Supes considers J’onn more powerful than himself.
As for Doomsday clones - a pack of them invaded Paradise Island in Superman/Batman, and Batman killed a few. Needless to say, they’re not the real thing.
Wasn’t there a recent fight between Batman and Wonder Woman where WW won? Batman afterwards admitted he knew he couldn’t beat Wonder Woman in a fight but he hoped she’d make some mistake he could exploit. I’d assume the same logic would apply if Batman was fighting Superman, Green Lantern, Thor, or Dr Manhattan - he’d only be able to win the fight if the other guy made a mistake. His “preparation” would consist of being ready to exploit that mistake.
Agreed.
It’s much less likely though that the average common thug could get his hands on kryptonite and figure out how to use it on Superman. It is extremely likely (if not inevitable) that a thug will get a lucky shot/punch on Batman and it’s all over. My issue is that I just can’t suspend disbelief for Batman because I can contextualize him in our reality and I can see how he wouldn’t last. Superman though it totally different insofar as he is an alien and you have to accept that in order to appreciate the story. In my mind, it is a lot easier to accept that then Batman running around without getting killed.
I had no idea Wonder Woman was quite that powerful. To be honest, it sort of confirms why I was never a big DC fan. Tossing a subway car into the sun… :rolleyes:
What about Plastic Man from DCU. He had some nifty powers and could be quite powerful in his own right.
On the Marvel side you also have the mutant Strong Man and Cloak & Dagger. Cloak had some interesting powers that were at least nifty to look at.
What about Starfox (aka Eros) of the Eternals? He can fly, has massive resistance to disease and can play with people’s emotions.
Holmes: I like your use of Iceman’s powers. Never thought of it that way before.
Could be. Consistent with my expectations. I know Bats did a guest-shot in WW’s book a while back; there was also the one-shot Hiketeia.
In a fair fight, WW kicks his butt - though he makes a good showing in the meantime.