…nah, I’m good thanks.
Vox revisits whether the war in Gaza meets the definition of genocide:
What stood out to me is Netanyahu’s plans to depopulate northern Gaza and ensure no aid gets in (supposedly to somehow get the hostages back, but that seems pretty nonsensical to me):
I don’t know if it’s genocide but it’s incredibly bloody and brutal and doesn’t seem to be accomplishing anything at all, except keeping Netanyahu in power and (possibly) impacting the US election per Netanyahu’s preference. Smapti and Babale’s knee jerk defenses of every single shred of criticism against the IDF and Israel’s overall strategy are so gleeful and information free that they might as well be coming from Yair Netanyahu.
What did I “brush past”, you whiny little Hezbollass licker?
I didn’t “brush past” your terrorist loving NGO’s reports. All they said was that the PRESS markings were clearly visible, and I explained why, given Hamas’ regular misuse of PRESS markings, someone might still mistake a tube being pointed at his tank by someone in a PRESS vest for a weapon. Because Hamas regularly uses PRESS clad militants.
Now, if you want to get back to your wild apples to oranges comparison with WW2 journalist deaths (but only some of them)…
Peak irony coming from you of all people. I have no idea what you’re talking about, though.
Cute.
You’ll note I didn’t defend against “any single shred of criticism”, but against the blood libelous narrative presented by Banquet Buddy and others claiming that Israel is willfully killing journalists left and right.
Your criticisms of my comments are so gleeful and information free that they could have been written by Banquet Buddy or his Iranian handlers themselves.
@iiandyiiii, do you disagree with any of the points I made about why Banquet Buddy’s comparison to WW2 is ridiculous?
You think that comparison in methodologies is “information free”?
What part of my analysis of why Hamas’ misuse of press markers might lead to tragic incidents like the one where reporters were shot at by a tank do you consider “Yair Netanyahuesque”, exactly?
Oh please, Bibi’s gonna be out of office any day now. Gantz was taking over months ago.
What’s that, Bibi is, AGAIN, more popular than any time after the October 7th attack? Unpossible!
Because you’re putting the best spin possible on everything. Doesn’t matter what right wing Israeli leadership actually in power says - the IDF must necessarily be as good as it gets, with only very occasional and regrettable mistakes at worst.
It’s just not believable. No, the IDF isn’t an army of monsters, but there are many right wing Israelis who are members. Many who are officers. Many who agree with Smotrich and worse. And some of them want to do terrible things, and a system led mostly by extremists should not be trusted to protect Gazan civilians (including journalists) from soldiers who wish them ill because they are Gazans.
Some of the deaths are surely mistakes as you describe. But it’s just not credible that they all necessarily are, or that all or nearly all Gazan civilians killed are necessarily killed due to entirely legitimate military operations. The scrutiny is deserved and warranted and the skepticism of IDF reports defending their own is similarly deserved and warranted.
Governments and militaries killing thousands upon thousands of civilians should be subject to this kind of scrutiny and skepticism. Especially when led by the kind of extremists in charge of Israel’s government. It’s just not necessary. Israel is killing thousands and accomplishing nothing for peace and security.
I didn’t say any of the things you’re arguing against here.
Obviously when we are in a thread with people who deny Israel’s right to exist and insist that every dead civilian is evidence of Israel’s genocidal intent, I’m going to take a pretty hardline stance. When the Hamas apologia stops, or in other venues where it isn’t so dominant in the conversation, I’m happy to have discussions with you about accountability. They do happen in those other venues, including in Israel where such discussion actually has an impact on anything, and they can get quite heated.
By every measure I can find, the combatant-to-civilian death ratio in Gaza is far worse than 3 to 1 (which, IIRC, Babale indicated was the appropriate threshold at which to be concerned). Hamas is very wrong to situate themselves among civilians, but that doesn’t mean it’s totally fine for the IDF to engage in actions that kill so many civilians and have effectively destroyed Gaza.
Their defenders in this thread act as if Israel had no choice but to do exactly what they’ve done. That’s ludicrous. Many of Israel’s critics will attack Israel no matter what they do. But many would not. Israel could have and should have done things differently after Oct 7th.
Say what? The numbers I’ve seen are around 17,000 militants to 44,000 total. That’s slightly better than 3 to 1.
Nm ()
What what?
Eta: ah, you edited your post. Initially you seemed quite shocked at the numbers I gave - were you under the impression that they were significantly different than that?
The reason I ask, @iiandyiiii, is that if you DID think the numbers were significantly worse, that would go a long way toward explaining your view of the conflict, or your reactions to my statements…
Yes, I did think they were significantly worse. I’m going to look into it some more.
If nothing else, I appreciate the good faith with which you approach this discussion.
And by the way, I don’t blame you - the way the narrative is often presented, I’d expect SIGNIFICANTLY worse casualty levels.
…just bear in mind that statistic from Israel is literally made up. It isn’t based on a real world assessment of people they’ve killed. It’s based on an estimate based on wars in the past.
Almost every humanitarian agency on the ground accepts the 42,000 figure is a significant undercount. The health system is in tatters and the system to record deaths can no longer keep up. There are an estimated 10,000 people (in May) buried under the rubble.
Yes, it is true - if you approach this from the standpoint that every claim made by Israel can automatically be assumed to be a “Zionist” lie, you might come to different conclusions.
…you know I’m right. We’ve had this discussion before. That figure isn’t based on a real world assessment of the numbers. Its a guess. And it doesn’t take into account the fact that the 42,000 is a significant undercount.
I know you like to smugly declare yourself right, yes.
Of course it is.
It is an estimate based on all the information that the Israeli army synthesizes, including combat reports and footage, analysis of video from drones and recon, and when possible actual examination of the battlefield. Which is precisely what any other army bases its figures on. It is not a “guess”.
If you want to disregard that entire branch of military science because all army analysts are part of an organization that’s inherently ideologically colonialist and violent or whatever, you can do you, but the rest of us are here in reality.
17,000/52,000 is 32.6% or just a hair below 1 in 3. But that also uses the highest estimate of casualties and the lowest estimate of combatants…