I mean, by this argument, the Palestinians should never accept a two state solution, because that would represent ceding their ancestral territory to the evil colonial Israelis. So should the Palestinians refuse all peace deals and just keep fighting until either they or the Israelis are completely destroyed?
OK, great. That’s a position. To that position I say: fuck off. Don’t tell me not to respond to Oct 7th.
Not really. If you actually read my arguments for Israel, very few of them have to do with the fact that Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel; that was an interesting discussion, but it has very little to do with what should happen with regards to Israel and Gaza. Israel should exist because it is the only way to ensure that the interests of the Jewish people aren’t completely ignored by the international community the next time someone tries to kill us. And incidentally, that’s the same reason that I support a Palestinian state, or a Kurdish state, or a Uyghur state.
I realized you might mean 1948-1973 is “ancient history”, not the indigenous discussion. In which case - fuck, man, I can’t help it if Americans think 100 years is a long time, any more than I can help it if Israelis think 100 miles is a long distance.
I’m not denying that this sort of shit exists, it does in any large group of people. 20% is a ludicrous overestimate, though.
I’m sure everyone else already knows, but can somebody explain this caps thing? I’ve seen it a lot lately. Googling tells me it’s a mocking gesture but I’m not sure I get it. Are the caps supposed to convey a message?
The Gazans or Palestinian leadership can end it tomorrow if they wanted to, however time and time again their willingness to want to destroy Israel over the rationality of a two state solution bears apparent over everything else, this is just another machination of that over this 75 year period.
This is the part that worries me most, too, as I noted back in post #443 with a link to this article:
ISTM that this suggests a fundamental hawkification of Israeli nationalism that is going to remain resistant to recognizing Palestinian rights and sovereignty, irrespective of whether Netanyahu or Smotrich or Ben-Gvir as specific individuals are serving in the government or not.
In which case, Israel supporters who argue that they just need to kick out Netanyahu after the war and that’ll fix the problem are being, to coin a phrase, “ignorant useful idiots” failing to acknowledge its magnitude. It seems very unlikely that kicking out Netanyahu will facilitate in any meaningful way kicking out the settlers who have been laying claim to more and more Palestinian lands, and committing more and more aggressive crimes against Palestinians, apparently with more and more impunity.
AFAICT, a full ten percent of all Israeli citizens now live outside of “Israel proper” in the West Bank, and nearly two-thirds of all Israeli Jews are opposed to the existence of a Palestinian state. Even if Netanyahu is deposed, what are the chances of getting an Israeli government that genuinely respects and supports Palestinian rights and territorial sovereignty? Where are the Israelis who are going to vote for that?
Sure, there are currently lots of Israeli protestors demanding the return of Israeli hostages and a non-Netanyahu government. Just like last year there were lots of Israeli protestors demanding (in addition to a non-Netanyahu government) rejection of the proposed Supreme Court overhaul that potentially threatened the rights of Israelis. But I don’t see any of that translating into actual broad-based support for the rights of Palestinians.
So that’s the crux of the disagreement. If it is anywhere close to as high as I suspect, then the IDF probably can’t succeed in destroying Hamas, at least not without tens or hundreds of thousands more Gazan civilians dead. Maybe not even then. That would be far worse than a Pyrrhic victory – that could doom Israel to decades more chaos and violence, if not worse.
If the IDF is as I suspect, then its immoral to let it loose among civilians, no matter what. A 10-20% extremist IDF can’t accomplish any real military goal at all except, maybe, defending Israel on Israeli territory.
I meant both, but more so 1948-73. And in some ways even 1939-1945. If the importance of Israel is to ensure that the interest of the Jewish people aren’t ignored, than it behooves Israel not to be viewed as a racist, bloodthirsty nation.
Anti-Semitism has risen in recent months because of Israel’s actions in Gaza. There is no need for us to argue the chicken and egg aspects of that, or whether it is fair, or just. It is a reality. You may say that it only further justifies whatever actions Israel needs to take to defend itself. But at what point do the Jewish people sell their soul ?
Also: OK, great. That’s a position. To that position I say: fuck off. Don’t tell me not to respond to Oct 7th.
Fuck off yourself. I never said not to respond to Oct. 7th. I said stop bombing now.
You think the Ukrainian journalists are spread over all the countryside?
No, 20, 000 is a very rough count of the people killed by the IOF, that they should not. All the women and children. “Sometimes” 
.
Remind me, and you’ll get one. I’m not setting an alarm, myself.
Will you commit to apologizing if thousands have starved? Or will you be doing more of the bending over backwards that argues whether a targeted headshot from cover is or isn’t “sniping”?
I didn’t say it’s always been genocide. Up to the last Intifada it was just vanilla apartheid.
Didn’t say it was.
Gotta love this game of strawman you’re attempting. Or just trolling.
Sure. And…?
Is it not genocide if you do it in respond to someone else’s genocide attempt? Is that you dumb-ass argument?
Bull. Shit.
I expect the perpetrators to be handed over to the ICJ any day, now…
Oh, god, there goes the “But, Hamas” Signal!
Yawn
Elective Egg Freezing? Educational Endowment Foundation?
What the fuck are you talking about? This guy? No thanks, don’t like country.
No it’s who they are
Unwillingly? The Nakba happened because the Arabs who used to live in what is now Israel proper lost the war to slaughter the Jewish people out of those Territories and were then expelled from returning by the victorious Israeli forces.
I think you underestimate the average Palestinian dislike for Jewish people. I would also point out that Hamas slaughtered thousands of concertgoers who were more than likely to sympathise with Palestinian plight. They even murdered an Israeli woman who had been an advocate for Palestinians throughout her life.
Vivian Silver
Was he talking about the EFF? Is he fucking insane?
What’s with these pro-Israel motherfuckers that they think everyone is as fucked-in-the-head racial-nationalistic as themselves? That’s twice this week one of them’s gone to that dumb well.
I’m not sure I’ve ever ever said who I do vote for, just who not.
I think it’s extremely convenient for anti-Palestinian activists to try to paint Palestinian anti-Israel views as antisemitism pure and simple, without getting into the inconvenient issue of the legitimate grievances Palestinians have against Israel.
That’s a pretty weaksauce objection. By that same reasoning, since Israeli attacks have slaughtered many Palestinians who were not Hamas supporters, then the Israeli attacks must be motivated by pure anti-Palestinian bigotry rather than any legitimate grievances against Hamas. Which is equally silly.
People carrying out indiscriminate slaughter, on both sides, end up slaughtering a lot of individuals who are not actually their enemies. It doesn’t necessarily mean that there are no legitimate causes of enmity involved in the conflict.
Economic Freedom Fighters
It’s never been genocide
Whys it a strawman?
But Israel hasn’t attempted to genocide Gazans, but Hamas has certainly raped and murdered its way though the Israeli population without pretending for a moment it had nothing else on its mind other than genociding the Jews as revenge.
I know due to Israels past involvements with the Afrikaan lead government you can’t give them the benefit of the doubt, but it’s mostly fog of war or isolated incidents which you assume must be genocide.
Just like all those former Apartheid lead military officials who fought in Angola
Oh yes the charter which explicitly demonstrates their contempt for Jews and why they would butcher them at the slightest opportunity, just like October 7th.
Now this is just straight-up clumsy and heavy-handed historical whitewashing. As the Jewish Israeli historian Ilan Pappe has written in “The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”,
Palestinians have legitimate grievances, this doesn’t preclude them being immune from being largely anti semitic.
No it’s motivated by the biggest mass slaughter of Jewish people since the Holocaust, which was perpetrated by Hamas, who are based in Gaza.
? Are you talking about the 2017 revised Hamas charter which is currently in force? Because that document says
What is the “explicit demonstration of contempt for Jews” that you feel that charter is expressing?
(Mind you, I’m not disagreeing that there doubtless are a lot of Hamas members, and other Palestinians, who are antisemitic as well as anti-Israel. I just don’t buy the claims that anti-Israel views are automatically identical with, or necessarily inspired by, antisemitism.)
Uh-huh. The killing of Palestinians by Israelis is automatically defined to be motivated by legitimate grievances, while the killing of Israelis by Palestinians is automatically defined to be motivated by antisemitism. Like I said: Convenient.
Lol, yeah the 750,000 left because they failed to exterminate and expel the Israeli population
The plan was a set of guidelines to take control of Mandatory Palestine, declare a Jewish state, and defend its borders and people, including the Jewish population outside of the borders, “before, and in anticipation of” the invasion by regular Arab armies.
Bolding.
No it’s driven by legitimate grievances and Jew hatred