No, but they are certainly spread out across multiple cities near the various fronts. Across areas that are larger than Israel and the Palestinian territories combined.
There’s a difference between an Israeli soldier killing a civilian in cold blood, an Israeli soldier killing a civilian because he mistook them for a militant, and an airstrike on a military target that also his civilians. You are pointing to an incident that we can argue over wheter it represents an example of the first or second scenario and trying to equate that to how those civilians died, when in fact the vast majority of casualties come from neither 1 nor 2 but 3.
If that were to happen, yep.
Unless Israel radically changes course (as in, a Ben Gvir and Co led coup, or something) I just don’t see that happening.
But you don’t bother to acknowledge the legitimate grievances unless you’re explicitly challenged on ignoring them. Your default is just to go on parroting propaganda about the Hamas terror attacks slaughtering Jewish Israelis “purely because of who they are”: i.e., solely out of Jew hatred, with no legitimate grievances anywhere in the underlying motivation.
You know, an important feature of propaganda rhetoric is supposed to be that it isn’t blindingly obvious as propaganda. You could not be making it any clearer that rational consistency and understanding don’t matter to you on these issues: when confronted with any weak points in your arguments, you’re just going to fall back on “October 7” and “slaughtering Jews” as emotional rallying cries to close off any uncomfortable engagement with facts.
Believe me, I agree with you wholeheartedly that the terror attacks of October 7 were horrifically atrocious and disastrous all around. But I am not going to let that recognition just destroy my capacity for rational thought, as you seem willing to do.
I understand the legitimate grievances however one point missing from all this is the Palestinians own intransigence in respects to a two state solution, what’s the point of a ceasefire if the underlying will to fight on the Palestinian side is not diminished.
I’m not uncomfortable with the notions of Palestinian aspirations, I’m just not blind to their virulent anti semitism made manifest on situations like October 7th.
If anything it’s pro Palestinians who are uncomfortable with the more unsavoury aspects of the Palestinian cause which they’re unable to come to terms with.
Your making mass judgments about a big group of people (millions!) with diverse views on a number of things. That makes it easy to condone collective punishment and mass suffering.
But the truth is that the vast majority of Palestinians played no role in the Oct 7th attacks. Killing them by the thousands isn’t helping anyone but Hamas (and their functional allies in the Israeli government, who similarly just want continued violence and suffering).
…the claims back in October were that if the siege were to continue, it would result in famine. And thats where we are now. From noted left-wing propagandist, Cindy McCain:
The first condition of famine, “20% of households have an extreme lack of food, or essentially starving”, has been met. The second condition, at least 30% of children suffer from acute malnutrition or wasting, meaning they’re too thin for their height, has nearly been met.
The third condition, " two adults or four children per every 10,000 people are dying daily of hunger and its complications" can’t be met, not because it is or isn’t happening, but because it is nearly impossible to track the number of deaths. Any of the remaining hospitals are effectively trauma centres now. People dying quietly in their homes or at a refugee camp or in a tent or in the ruins of a building aren’t going to get a death certificate.
This is, of course, deliberate. The near complete destruction of infrastructure, the killing of journalists, shutting down the hospitals, this is the point. You get to come on here smugly and declare “starvation hasn’t materialized” when you know full well about the famine, about the siege, about how every single humanitarian agency has said the same thing, that Gazans are starving.
From today:
Its very important to note that the claims of “5-600 trucks of aid” are coming from COGAT, who are not a reliable source and are effectively state propaganda. For example, this Tweet:
A reminder: Israel controls who can get into and out of Gaza, including what trucks get through and which ones don’t. From earlier this year:
I can’t source any current information right now, but considering they are voting to designate UNRWA as a terrorist organisation, it is likely UNRWA trucks were denied entry as opposed the claims that they aren’t providing any aid.
A question for you: what exactly were a million people doing in Rafah?
Gaza has a population of 2.3 million people. How did nearly half of them end up in a city in the southernmost border?
They ended up there because they were forced there. They were ordered to leave their homes and then their homes were either bombed or destroyed in controlled demolitions.
Many of them have been displaced multiple times. Bounced from city-to-city, block-to-block, grid section-to-grid section, like ping-pong balls.
This wasn’t an “evacuation.” It’s a fucking warcrime. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative. But that what this is.
When word came that they were going into Rafah, of course many were ready to go. But where exactly have they “evacuated” to? They’ve returned to bombed out cities and towns and are living in rubble. Or they’ve fled to al-Mawasi, where Israel have been driving people to since the start of this “war”, which is the size of Heathrow Airport and
Bullshit.
It’s already a humanitarian crisis.
People were “whining” about going into Rafah because it would be impossible to do so without it turning into a bloodbath. And what happened last night, which finally resulted in nearly full condemnation from the international community and a backtrack from Netanyahu just proved those “whining Americans” were very much correct. You can’t drop bombs on tent cities and expect anything else but carnage. There is video from last night of beheaded babies and people being burned alive.
The claim that “Israel makes extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties” is a bullshit claim. Not when they use “Artificial Intelligence” targeting systems to mark tens-of-thousands of Gazans for assassination, where at times the only “check and balance” was whether they were male or not. When the people in charge did this:
That’s pretty rich, considering you immediately go on to cite Al Jazeera, which is literally state owned propaganda. You are beyond parody, banquet buddy.
They were obviously evacuated there as part of those extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties despite Hamas’ best efforts. Which I’m sure you’ll recast as literally genocide because again, you are beyond parody.
Because lets be honest here, thats all that you have.
Everything else that you said were lies and propaganda. There were no “500 trucks a day.” Gazans are starving. There is a famine.
Its ethnic cleansing. There has been no “extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties” by the IDF. They’ve literally razed fields, burned down hospital, destroyed Mosques, destroyed every university, bombed apartment blocks, bulldozed schools, and laughed and cheered while they did it.
They’ve detained thousands of Palestinians, both from Gaza and the West Bank and abused, humiliated and tortured many of them. We’ve got the footage. We’ve got the testimony from people who worked in the prisons.
Ok, let’s talk in a year and see if anyone actually starved. We clearly disagree on the facts and I’m not gonna convince you otherwise because I’m an evil Zionist pig.
Bingo!
For shits and giggles? Because the Yahud is so evil and vile? Or maybe because Hamas was fighting out of those locations?
…I don’t need to talk to you in a year to “see if anyone’s actually starved.” The American director of the U.N. World Food Program has said that there is “full-blown famine” in the north. Which means people are dying of starvation by the official designations and metrics. We just don’t know how many.
I mean, my views here aren’t exactly a secret. “Bingo!” when I say the thing that I’ve provided extensive evidence of for months isn’t the victory you think it is.
Sometimes.
You mean controlled demolitions of entire apartment blocks? Where IDF soldiers are able to freely and safely walk around and plant explosives, then get to a safe distance so they can get a big explosion so they can share it on TikTok?
Because, as we all know, genocide means making sure a building is completely unoccupied before carefully demolishing it in a way that won’t danage other inhabited structures.
What a fucking joke. Even the lying Gaza Hamas Ministry of Health doesn’t claim this particular lie.
That article shows soldiers taking joy in blowing up buildings. But of course, if they are blowing up a valid military target full of Hamas equipment and tunnels, there’s nothing wrong with that, so…
Entire apartment blocks get used by Hamas to launch their war against Israel, so yes, entire apartment blocks (and the massive tunnel networks unnderneath them).
Anyways, the mass murder of unoccupied buildings would be Dormicide, not Genocide.
I mean morally, mind you - their commanding officers should definitely not be letting them use their phones to record TikTok videos on duty, especially considering TikTok’s ties to China.
…well, no. The case for genocide has been made here:
Thats several months out-of-date now, of course. The scale of atrocities is now much, much worse.
And they weren’t"carefully demolishing it in a way that won’t danage other inhabited structures. Because as we’ve just been talking about, over a million people have been displaced, and because of this:
Here it is folks. Bable is calling Cindy McCain a liar.
Bable hasn’t, of course, presented any evidence to the contrary. Just declared that there is no starvation in Gaza.
Not only that. There was the humiliation of the prisoners in there as well.
The “if” is the important part here. Because the evidence that they are blowing up “valid military targets full of Hamas equipment and tunnels” is virtually non-existent. I know it is, because I’ve looked, and if it existed you’d be sharing it here in this thread.
Nah. These are straight up war crimes. The “massive tunnel networks” are both Hamas and IDF propaganda. Yes, tunnels exist, but not to the extent that it required the whole-scale destruction of thousands of homes and the forced displacement of well over a million people.
What the fuck are you talking about? You are delusional. Cindy McCain claimed that people in Gaza are dying of starvation, beyond the two dozen or so claimed by the Gaza Ministry of Health?
Exactly. You’ve been posting the same hyperbolic rant for seven months now and this mass starvation and die-off is always just about to happen ANY DAY NOW. You’ve been saying the Gazans are out of food since October. It’s been 3 months since you claimed the people had nothing to eat but grass. I’ve lost track of how many times “the last hospital” has been destroyed.
And yet the HIGHEST estimated death counts, which are coming from literal propaganda outlets anyway, don’t go much higher than 35,000 - barely 1.5% of Gaza’s population (which incidentslly has quadrupled since Israel first took over in 1967.) That’s not genocide. That’s barely a rounding error. Covid has likely killed more Gazan civilians than Israel has.
You’re full of hot air, hyperbole, and antisemitic propaganda and you should really just shut up.
I’ve posted plenty of videos and pictures, and each time your response was to bend over backwards to dismiss it. Right, the RPGs in the basement of the hospital were there because some wounded Hamas soldier came in to treat his injuries and he brought his rocket launcher along. Give me a fucking break.
You’re clearly not interested in any evidence that Israel has just cause to operate in Gaza, because you’ve made your mind up about it being a genocide before the war even started. You’re not operating in a reality based paradigm, so arguing with you or providing evidence to you is a waste of time.
If you honestly think Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza, I guess I have nothing else to say to you. You can cope and seethe for the next couple of months until the dust settles and it becomes obvious that the Gazans aren’t going anywhere. Maybe at that point you will realize you were wrong; far more likely, you will twist logic into even tighter knots in prder to convince yourself that Zionism is the evil and genocidal ideology you’ve convinced yourself it is.
Cindy McCain has declared that northern Gaza is in full blown famine. You aren’t in famine unless people are dying of starvation.
The “two dozen or so” claimed by the Gaza Ministry of Health were from months ago. The situation, including communication and reporting, have deteriorated substantially since then, including burning down Al Shifa where a lot of the reporting was collated.
This is the current state of hospitals in Gaza:
That was three days ago. Its worse now, with reports that one of the hospitals in Rafah has had to close in the last few hours.
When they can’t even treat the people that are being bombed right now, how do you expect them to know how many are dying of starvation?
Here’s your chance. You can share them here. Go for it. Justify the damage and destruction of an estimated 70% (recorded in December) of homes.
An RPG in the basement of a hospital is not enough to justify the destruction of that hospital. The systematic destruction of the Gazan healthcare system are breaches of the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law. They are war crimes. Atrocities.
Give me a fucking break.
We can go back and read my posts from the start. I’ve been all over the evidence. I didn’t post in threads on Gaza because I did think Israel had just cause to operate in Gaza.
What changed my mind was the evidence. At this stage the evidence is overwhelming. In all of the posts you’ve made here today you’ve bought zero evidence to the table. I’ve provided citations for every single thing I’ve claimed.
If after seven months I can be bothered to keep providing evidence knowing full well that you will ignore it, then you can do the same as well. Because it isn’t just me and you in this conversation. You’ve got the opportunity to prove your case. To defend this war. If the evidence for your position is so overwhelming, then share it already.
I’ve said all along there will be three outcomes here: firstly, Gazans manage to escape. Secondly, they don’t escape and have to live under brutal occupation of Israel for the rest of their lives. Thirdly: they die.
So for the Gazans that “aren’t going anywhere” it means a life under brutal occupation, their lands stolen, forever under threat of being disappeared or killed by the Israeli regime.
So lets for starters be clear on what “aren’t going anywhere” actually means. It doesn’t mean a “free Gaza.” It doesn’t mean a “free Palestine.” What’s going on in the West Bank right now shows where this is going. The many many documented statements from Israeli officials tells us exactly what it is that they want.
I won’t be “coping and seething.” You have successfully radicalised me. I’m getting old and I can’t even get out of the house any more. But I’ll do everything I can to help the Palestinian cause. That will probably mean fighting my own government to allow more Palestinian refugees into my country, then supporting them once they get here.
