Right, and then another little over a third say it’s “very important”. 45+37=82, or a “vast majority”.
I have no idea what that has to do with anything, but OK, thanks for sharing!
Here’s a hint: I didn’t claim that all Jews approve of what Israel does. I wouldn’t even claim that all Israelis approve of everything Israel does. In fact, I’ve never met a single Israeli who couldn’t find something to complain about.
It means there are people who can’t understand that I can be Jewish without being Israeli. Who might start a discussion with “Your Prime Minister Netanyahu” when he certainly is not my anything. It gets back to the notion that Jews aren’t loyal to the nations where they’re born or live or are citizens. Or when Netanyahu stands up in front of the UN and proclaims that he speaks for all Jews. No, he certainly does not. That ties into the notion that Jews are only loyal to themselves and nothing and no one else and are therefore not to be trusted.
Maybe you don’t encounter that. It’s a staple of both European and American antisemitism, though.
Nah sorry, after October 7th all that went out the window. Palestinian actions are rooted in proximal events and good old anti semitic ideology. Anti Israeli sentiment has been there ever since Israel was founded.
Don’t mix up cause and effect, there. There’s a 2000 year history of the Goyim distrusting us. In fact, there used to be a guy who thought a lot like you do about Jews in civilized countries (like his native Austria, I’m sure no anti-Semites will ever come from there!). That is, until he went to France, another bastion of secularism and liberal values, to report on the way the country and people showed their gratitude for the loyalty and devotion displayed by the Jewish officer in the military.
That was when he got a serious reality check and decided to invent Zionism (which had, of course, already been invented by that point, but he did much to popularize it further).
Oh, I’ve encountered plenty of antisemitism during my time in the US. A bit of Islamophobia, too - I can very much pass for Arab. Especially to an Islamophobe.
As if there’s no history of Group A distrusting everyone not Group A, Group B distrusting everyone not group B, etc. etc.
Can we handwave every form of racism and prejudice away like that, or only anti-semitism?
I don’t know why you bother replying to my posts if you are just gonna quote one line and make some kind of non sequitur.
You implied that people distrust Jews because they think they are secretly loyal to Israel. And I pointed out that people have always assumed that Jews have dual loyalties because they are Jews, long before Israel ever existed. In fact, one such incident led to the rise of Zionism.
And in response, you go:
LOL people have always mistrusted one another!
It fucking pisses me off the way you twist other peoples’ responses. I in no way laughed or thought it amusing, but apparently I wasn’t fitting in the pigeonhole you assigned me so it was time to hammer away again.
Yes, I have a very different viewpoint that you.
Yes, people have long distrusted the Jews for stubbornly remaining Jews rather than assimilating. They’ve done the same to the Romani who, if anything, are even more oppressed than Jews these days. That’s a reality for minorities without a country to call their own. The Jews aren’t special because they’re viewed with suspicion, it’s a problem with being a diaspora and the Jews aren’t the only ones who are a diaspora. The remarkable thing about the Jews is how well they do manage despite that liability. That statement in no way negates centuries of mistreatment and murder.
You don’t want to face that there were people living for a very long time in the Levant before the Zionists showed up to take that land by force. It’s a flaw in Jewish culture that so many Jews don’t seem to understand that those displaced people have legitimate reasons to be pissed as hell to be deprived of their land and livelihoods. The Jews being a dispossessed people in no way justified them dispossessing others.
Minority viewpoint among Jews? Sure - got it from my very Orthodox relatives who were anti-Zionists even before the world wars. It’s never been the case that all Jews were in favor of modern Israel, as much as the pro-Zionists would have it be so. The impulse to ostracize those that aren’t properly Zionist is not that different from the current Israeli government ministers that want to declare millions of Jews world-wide as not Jewish. It seeks a purity that I find repugnant. If Judaism isn’t a big enough tent to encompass differences of opinion, even over serious subjects, then the finding of those not pure enough will never end, and neither will the casting-out of the impure. Keep it up long enough and those remaining will have alienated sufficient people that at some point no one will come to their aid again and that will end very badly.
If you weren’t so high on your own farts, you’d realize that if course I agree with this, and that’s why I support self determination for other dispossessed groups like the Kurds, Uyghurs, Rohingya, and other ethnic groups that are currently suffering the same fate that Jews had for 2,000 years… And yes, that includes the Palestinians, who should get a state too.
Yeah, the Jews are remarkable for thriving despite persecution, and even for clawing their way back onto the world stage after 2,000 years of exile. Now that we have successfully done so, we shouldn’t pull up the ladder, but rather try to help those other groups achieve self determination as well.
What we shouldn’t do is what you’re apparently content to - tell these people “fuck you, don’t you know the End of History happened when Japan surrendered? If you achieved self determination before 1945, that was heroic and wonderful, but after that, you missed your shot!”.
A people without self determination is an abortion of justice that should be rectified, not scoffed at.
You mean when they bought the land in the late 1800s?
Go fuck yourself. A “flaw in Jewish culture”? What the fuck is wrong with you?
I’m sure @Ratfucker - sorry, @crowmanyclouds - will be along any second to finger wag you for mixing up Jews and Israelis.
Oh, there have always been wide ranges of opinions among the Jewish people. Two Jews, three opinions, as they say. Some Jews even helped the Nazis shove the rest of us into gas chambers.
It’s funny how much moralizing and finger wagging you do about us “Pro Zionists” don’t want people to know tHe TrUtH when I brought up both Bundists, and the Orthodox idiots who want to wait for the Messiah, in this very thread. But if it makes you feel good about yourself, you may continue with your self righteous finger wagging.
I don’t give a shit about ‘purity’ or whatever the fuck you’re on. The concern, and it’s a very valid one, is that idiocy like yours will make Jews less safe in the long run.
Uhh, I’m just not seeing where Broomstick is doing that in that post.
If YOU weren’t so high on your own anger you’d realize that yes, we BOTH agree on this, including that the Palestinians should have their own state, just as every other displaced dispossessed people/culture/group. I realize that a lot of the venom you spew is you venting in a relatively safe space. It why some of us are still willing to engage with you.
Agreed. See, we aren’t that far apart. The devil, as always, is in the details. Except, of course, the manner in which the current Israel is conducting a war makes it look like they’re murderous assholes because, to be frank, Israel is losing the propaganda war.
Agreed.
Again - I never said any such thing.
I do think we need to learn from history. Apparently just having the UN declare “here’s your land” doesn’t work. Granted, that was in no small part to other nations deciding to fuck things up for their own reasons.
I don’t know how to reconcile the need for safe lands for minorities and diasporas with the greed and fear that seems all too common in humanity. We do have some idea of what hasn’t worked in the past. Just as well I’m not involved in diplomacy or government, I don’t pretend I’d do any better than anyone else has up to this point.
Any Jews that legally bought land in the Levant should not have been displaced. That is not inconsistent with saying Palestinians who legally owned land should not have been displaced. As soon as war broke out, though, it was guaranteed that there would injustice.
You go fuck yourself. I’m allowed to criticize Jewish culture. I would have said “Israeli culture” except for the number of Jewish bigots from here I’ve encountered over the Jews who described Palestinians as “animals” and “vermin” so I know it’s not limited to just a subset of Israelis. There are bigots in our midst, and people who lack empathy for others, and every other flaw. Surprise! Jews are human, too. We have bad people just as we have good people.
You know, outside this forum I really don’t discuss this… and neither do most other people I know. Because it stirs up truly negative feelings and people accusing each other of being self-loathing anti-semitic Jews.
There is also a concern that the way the IDF and the Israeli government is conducting this current conflict will ALSO make Jews less safe in the long run. The asshattery over in the Middle East spilling over to other parts of the globe is why my local synagogue has had to take money out of its building fund to up the security on our building instead. Some fucking “safe haven” that turned out to be. And with ministers in the Israeli government wanting to declare me and millions of others as “not-Jewish” it is definitely not looking like a “safe haven” for me or a lot of other people who, apparently, not Jewish enough.
Fuck you if you call my reality “idiocy”. YOU aren’t the one who would be barred from that “safe haven” you keep talking about.
Why the hell should I have to suffer because of a war on the other side of the planet over land my family hasn’t touched in 1800 years and frankly has no interest in? Maybe Netanyahu should fucking stop saying he speaks for all Jews or conflating Jews and Israel. The fact is slightly more than half of Jews in the world live outside Israel, even though all of them (at least for now - that could change) are allowed to move there at any time. Huh. Guess they’re voting with their feet. At times I feel like Netanyahu and his cronies want to construct a world where Jews are forced to move to Israel, presumably to further their own ends. Then I tell myself not to fall prey to unsubstantiated fears.
Oh, you’re 100% correct about the propaganda war. That’s unfortunately the consequence of not taking the Oct 7 footage and shoving it in the world’s face over and over again. While that would be undoubtedly effective, it would also degrade and dishonor the memory of those who were so brutally raped and killed.
Israel has made a conscious choice not to cheapen human suffering in that way, and while it is a costly choice when it comes to world opinion, and I’m conflicted about it - there are times when I wish we would be that shameless if it would be effective - I think that overall I agree with and support that decision.
Diplomats do show a lengthy compilation to figures in power, and I think that’s a reasonable compromise, but it doesn’t have nearly the effectiveness that it could.
I know more American Christians (mostly cultural Christians but some practicing) who call Palestinians animals or vermin than Jews of any nationality, but sure, that’s a flaw with Jewish culture. Whatever.
Well, your synagogue has to spend a bit more on security, and my family is alive in Israel instead of dead in Morocco. I call that a win for the Jews.
Not all of us were as privileged as your family, to make it into the States despite Jew quotas.
Mhmm, two ministers, representing two parties, that won’t meet the minimum requirements to get into Parliament at the next election.
Meanwhile in the US you have equally influential politicians who are members of one of the two parties in your system who think Jews have space lasers.
Neither will you. Meanwhile, your country’s leadership is going to seize our space lasers! (See how idiotic it is to take comments made by fringe lawmakers and pretend they represent national policy?)
Oh, I’m sure if you make sure they know how anti-Zionist you are, they’ll know you’re one of the good Jews. After all, they’re not antisemitic, right? Just anti Zionist?
Yeah I think it’s an American thing in general rather than just an American Jewish thing. I mean I’d want the group I’m in to be better than that but “Americans” is also a group I’m in. The racism against Arabs is more or less a tie for first in America.
The sending of troops has hit home for us. My grandson was going to college on an ROTC program. If he had graduated, he would have gone to OCS and been commissioned as an officer. Well, he decided to drop out in his junior year, but of course his obligation was still there. He ended up as a private, was sent to the Middle East with his National Guard unit and he hated every moment of it.
COVID came along and they were all told that if they refused the vaccination, they would be discharged. Since he hated what he was doing, he refused the vax and his contract was terminated. He went home, married his girlfriend, bought a house and got a good job in construction.
Fast forward to now and his mother tells me that the NG has come back and told him that since the vax is no longer a requirement, he now needs to finish his contract. He’s now in Texas for training, will be leaving for Kuwait and then to Israel, not to return until next fucking August! What the everloving fuck? And why is the NG doing the Army’s job?
The history of Jewish persecution isn’t comparable to other minorities or diaspora peoples. Nobody believed that the Romani were engaged in a conspiracy to corrupt, deceive, undermine and destroy Christian civilization. The predominant and ongoing slander against Jews collectively is not merely that they’re greedy and dishonest, it’s that they’re outright evil. People believed Jews were drinking the blood of Christian babies. People believed that they - in perpetuity - were guilty of having killed Jesus Christ. This goes way, way beyond standard xenophobia and standard religious bigotry, and it was ubiquitous LONG before Israel or Zionism existed.
Does any of this justify the war crimes of Israel, absolutely not. But it absolutely explains why a lot of Jews in Israel and even outside of it would circle the wagons and say "fuck it, you’re all going to hate us regardless. " The generational trauma of being so persecuted has passed down to the present day.
Which never made sense to me, since it’s pretty much one of the most basic principles of Christianity that Jesus getting killed was a good thing.
IIRC, it was Saul Bellow who remarked on the uniqueness of antisemitism. Blacks, Irish, Slavs, etc. were looked down upon; poorer hygiene, less educated, impulsive, all that. Conquerors and colonizers, in turn, were hated for their hypocrisy: pretending superiority while practicing unfairness. Perfidious Albion, the Black Legend of Spain. The Jews had neither. Well-educated, disciplined but lacking military or political power…. well, what were they hiding then?
Maybe, but it was supposed to redeem everyone as long as they accepted Christ and the Jews refused to.
In any event we’re long passed the point of old fashioned religious hatred and onto hatred of an archetype of evil which the Jews have come to represent. And believe me, it’s still there, read some alt-right forums and you’ll see the “Jews are IRL vampires and demons” belief is still here and Jews are within reason to fear a resurgence of kinetic anti-Semitic violence.
This assumes a lot more theological thought than your average anti-Semite is capable of. The logic is very simple. Jesus was a good person, actually the best person who ever lived, the Jews killed him, therefore the Jews are bad. Although actually it probably more likely goes in the direction of “We know the Jews are bad, let’s figure out how to justify this claim. Oh I know, they killed Jesus.”
Well, no one is forced to believe Judaism is the greatest religion and/or convert to Judaism if one does not like their theology or organizational structure, and if Jesus was done away with by some corrupt individuals who did that sort of thing to so-called heretics, why not consider those individuals bad?
Regardless, I don’t buy for a second that these Middle East wars are religious wars fought over some subtle theological differences.
Eh, Modi’s conspiracy theories in India about Muslims are at least in the same ballpark as this.