Again I ask who is this ‘We’, capitalized that is spoken of in the Koran?
If Allah is a single ‘god’ and there is ‘no god but Allah’, then why the We? Why is it capitalized?
Never mind God; I’m now worried about Queen Elizabeth.
Fanwank. I assure you, the Jewish nomads who first told the Genesis story to each other did not believe that God the Father was talking to God the Son and God the HS. Looking at it through a much later Christian lens does not answer any questions about what it meant when it was contemporary.
No, the “royal We” is just a sign that Liz is aiming her comments at her fellow lizard people.
Short answer: It’s an Arabic to English translation thing.
http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/AllahWE.htm
The Word was before the creation of the world. All scripture is God breathed. While it is true that the Jewish people did not know that the scriptures were testifying about Jesus, that does not change the fact that it is. God put forth His Word to man exactly how He wants, regardless of if man can interpret it at the time of the revelation:
Here Daniel admits he didn’t understand it.
I also still contend that Allah, though he claims to be all powerful, has proven himself unable to preserve his word and has to send a correction. While the God who created the Heavens and earth boldly proclaims:
Rather unconvincing. The verses cited seem to be referring the work by God given to angels (both fallen and holy), and therefore ‘we’, again capitalized due to the pride of Allah/Satan. When referring to the single demon Allah, then ‘I’ or ‘He’ is used.
And I didn’t see where it was a translation issue, just a attempt to justify it
What more do you want? If you know any Arabic speakers, you can ask and I’m confident you’ll get the same answer (I’ve asked two Arabic speakers- one Muslim and the other Christian).
Explain this further. What do modern women have to do with Eve?
Why would a just God put a whole gender into bondage over what one woman did like that?
Further women are adults. They have the same facilities and reasoning abilities as men. They don’t need to be in submission to anyone, and that expectation can lead to some real fucked up relationships.
Would you like to be controlled by some other human? Further it just adds to the guilt of the victim in domestic abuse situations. How would you feel if some asshole was beating you with a belt because he didn’t like dinner? Now imagine you’re told to just submit to the beatings by what you believe is god because N grandma ate a bad apple?
God had to know stuff like that would happen or god is a fool.
This is merely silly. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God and if you were an Arab Christian it would be the way you addressed God, just as if you were French you would address Dieu or Greek, Theos. Pretending that Allah is some sort of demon merely places all your rhetoric into the category of “demonizing,” (literally in this case), that which one opposes.
More invented silliness. Capitalization is a function of the grammar of particular languages and was used in English translations of the Arabic because the English-speaking translators wished to accord normal respect to the (presumably divine) speaker in their translations. Attributing that to the intent of some demon and claiming that this action has confirmed the demon that you have discerned behind the statement is simpl.y proof that you are making this stuff up as you go along. Arabic has no capital/lower case distinctions in its alphabet and so the original could not have been an act by a demon inflating his importance.
(I am sure that you will see the hand of the “demon” in guiding the English translators, but you are still making it up as you go along as you were clearly unaware of the situation before this discussion. I’m curious whether you believe that all Arab Christians are actually following a demon rather than Jesus, just because of their word for God.)
tomndebb it’s the condition of the heart which God meansures. God doesn’t speak English (though He could). If you pray to God and your pronounce it Allah then God knows what you mean, if you pray to the demon Allah then that’s who you are praying to.
Then what is the original? Then and lets go with that instead of the translations. I have no desire to search for a Koran lexicon, but if you want fell free.
Everything, as well as modern men have to do with Adam.
We, in our own ways are in bondage to sin already. When we come to Jesus we are in submission to Him.
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They don’t have the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:22), which is why they are put under the authority of men. Woman was taken out of a man, they have different characteristics, that used to be inside the one man Adam. Now part of what was in Adam is now in Eve, Adam no longer contains that part. Marriage combines the 2 into 1 flesh, restoring the single being.
They are, as well as men. Everyone except God is in submission to either man, demon or God already.
The modern woman has a choice who to submit to, if done according to the Word of God she will find someone Christ like who will never enforce submission, submission comes solely from the woman’s desire to submit. If they stray from this they no longer receive God’s protection over their relationship.
God does know what may happen, but that’s when we disobey His Word.
If you want to start a thread on this I’ll reply further in detail there.
1 Peter 3 has a great description of the Godly husband wife relationship.
And yet, you feel free to claim that it is “Allah” that is a demon rather than referring to “the demon posing as God who spoke to Mohammad.” You are rather free with your judgmental claims about others’ beliefs and while you are not persuading anyone of your odd beliefs. Since this is Great Debates, it is still worthwhile for others to point out how you manufacture claims to support those beliefs.
I have no desire to poke around in concordances of the Qur’an, either. It would serve no point. The point was not the specific text found in the Qur’an; the point was that you felt quite comforatble making a declaration about the Qur’an and Islam that was based wholly on your own ignorance of the text on which you based your condemnation. You might want to consider that when you next sit down with God to determine what sort of “truths” you should be posting.
Then perhaps you’ll tell us how you handle Genesis 1:26.
Is the speaker a demon? Is the speaker the same entity as in Genesis 2:11?
As I posted above, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Also in the Bible it says what God says. In the quoted verses of the Koran it never says it’s God speaking, but sort of dances around that subject (because it’s not God speaking)
Further, kanicbird, you do understand that neither Hebrew nor Arabic makes a distinction between capital and lowercase letters, don’t you? You understand that “allah” cannot be capitalized in Arabic, because there are no capital letterforms? Do you understand, therefore, that any capitalization that you see was applied after the fact by translators and editors?
Is the demonic capitalization plot aimed only at the readers of European languages?
You’re simply making excuses here. The Trinity is one way of understanding G-d, but even those religions that believe in a triune G-d still agree that G-d is a single entity with three aspects or forms.
By analogy: I present myself differently depending on my circumstances. At work, people see a nerd in a tie, carrying a pen and a cup of coffee, speaking database gibberish. At the barn, people are likely to see a sweaty freak in a leather apron, carrying a mean-looking set of hoof nippers and saying unkind things to my horse. At a dance a few weeks ago, people saw a flabby dude in a plaid shirt, knitting socks, speaking in reasonably complete sentences suggesting a good grasp of common social graces. People who have met me in one context probably wouldn’t immediate recognize me in one of the others. I could easily pass myself off as three different people. But I don’t, and I don’t refer to myself in the plural. Why shouldn’t G-d do the same?
I could just as easily argue that the Bible has to specify when G-d is speaking because there are multiple deities speaking.
In Arabic people often address individuals with the plural form of “you” and refer to themselves (as individuals) with the plural form, “us” and “we.”
And as cwthree said, there are no capital letters in Arabic and it’s impossible to distinguish between capital and lower case letters.
And “dog” spelled backwards is only “God” in English.
I did not know this about Arabic. There has still not been a good reason presented why ‘we’ is being used to define a god that is expressly singular in ‘godness’ and ‘person’ and is a central premise of Islam. IIRC it is even called a central piller of their faith.
The use of we, among other things reminds me of this verse:
Where Jesus cast out many demons out of a person. With the combined use of singular ‘My’, and plural ‘we’, that seems to be how the Koran verses reads.
“We” in this context is a majestic plural, used in the same way the the Queen of England refers to herself as “we.” The Queen doesn’t have a split personality, an evil twin, or (presumably) a tapeworm. Nevertheless, she may use the plural when speaking of herself.
It’s worth noting that the English-language second-person pronoun “you” was originally plural. At one time, “you” would have been used either to address more than one person OR to address one person of higher status than the speaker. Again, the plural is used to indicate status or authority, not only number.