Do Atheists deserve respect?

In the spirit of Voltaire, I may not personally respect your specific beliefs, but I certainly would respect your right hold them. And I would not share my lack of respect (if any, or on any level) unless specifically asked to, and then I would try to do so respectfully. If that makes any sense.

Ironically, it is the lack of respect for my beliefs I have encountered on this Board (in the past) that has made me a heck of lot more sensitive to the importance of showing respect for the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others. Though I have be proselytized and had intellectual conversations of various levels of civility on the nature of God (ah, college), I have never IRL had to take the level of shit I have had to take around here just for being a moderate Christian. So it’s not as if the atheists have cornered this particular market. The ignorant and the rude will disrespect anyone for any reason.

Lizard wrote:

In him?

There’s an invisible pink unicorn here who’d like to have a word with you about the Deity’s gender.

A lack of understanding would have produced a confused or quizzical look and reply. This response was pity, which is presumptive. Let me turn it around, if I had said “How sad”, after she reveals she is Jewish or Christian or whatever, how do you think she would react? Offended comes to mind.

I am not talking about people in the street handing out pamphlets to anyone. That bothers everyone equally. Let me give you another example. For about a year I had worked together with a colleague whom I got along with very well. We went out for drinks after hours and we were on our way to becoming good friends, we never discussed religion. Then he found out I was an Atheist. Next time we had after work drinks, he gave me a book on Buddhism and asked me to let me know when I had read it so we could discuss it. He had assumed I was Christian, not until he realized I was Atheist did he give me the book. He assumed I was undecided. Why? Is it so ingrained in peoplefs minds that one has to belong to a religious group?
Obviously, I explained that I was not shopping and he was open enough to understand. We remain friends today and we donft discuss religion. So yes, I know how to say no thanks. The point is, why do I have to? However minor, it still shows a lack of respect, and after years of this I believe I know how to handle it. I am not overly sensitive and realize that Ifm going to have to roll with the punches. That is not the point of this debate. The question is; why are religious people, even at a secular level, intolerant of Atheists? (Obviously I am not talking about all religious people, I know there are exceptions.)
Could it be indoctrination? Think about it. Religion is the very first conceptual idea, which is passed from parent to child. So people are taught early to believe in something unproven. Isnft this a form of indoctrination? Wouldnft someone like this, even were they secular, have a problem with the concept of Atheism? It certainly goes against the very foundation of what they have been taught.
Just a thought, by no means do I intend to offend anyone.

A blithering idiot who happens to be a Christian is a blithering idiot. If he happens to be Atheist, or Wiccan, or Taoist, or Shinto, or Rastafarian, or Pantheist, he remains a blithering idiot.

Faith and knowledge are not much related. Intelligence is only one characteristic of human beings, and a highly overrated one, in general. Respect comes because we owe each other a certain minimum of courtesy, and occasionally we find others who exceed our expectations enough to merit even more. If we only find that state in those who most closely agree with our own philosophy, that says a lot more about us, than it does about them.

There are many who diligently apply their considerable intellect to the study of the Bible, or the Torah, or of the Tao, or the Koran, or the Vedas or the Principea Mathematica. Their scholarship merits our respect. There are also many that relentlessly scour those same works searching for self validation. They deserve our scorn, in proportion to the publicity that they give their self-worship.

And in the world are a few kind souls, knowing nothing of God, or religion, or philosophy, but giving to each person they meet kindness, and comfort, solace in pain, and fellowship in celebration. We should seek to earn their respect. They deserve our emulation.

I would have jumped in sooner, but I had to go dig my hip-boots out of the closet.

Look folks, every one of us is an Atheist. There are hundreds of “gods” and “goddesses” that y’all don’t believe in-I just don’t believe in one additional “god”. You don’t believe in Odin? You’re an Atheist. You don’t believe in Zeus? You’re an Atheist. You don’t believe in the IPU? You’re an Athiest(and a soulless heathen that deserves to spend the rest of your life listening to Pat Robertson’s presidential speaches :)).

Of course, if someone can come up with several hundred dis-proofs of the various pantheons that currently being worshipped… :wink:

when we practice etymology.

Why make things more complex than required? It does not require faith to lack faith. It does not require religion to lack religion. Atheism is no more self-contradictory than “uncharged” or “nonstick” or “amoral”.

Not at all. It simply means that some of us are not joining the “religion” game. Those who like the game each get to join the team they think will win. Agnostics are convinced that it is never possible to pick the winning team. Weak atheists are convinced the game has no winner. Strong atheists think the game is provably unwinnable.

There, have we tortured that metaphor sufficiently?

Why? Do you believe strong atheists secretly believe in a deity? Atheism does not mean lacking all faith. It means lacking faith in any god(s).

Czarcasm

No.

Disliking one woman does not make one a misogynist. Failure to work every possible job does not make one unemployed. Inablility to perceive ultraviolet light does not make one blind.

Adding more confusion to the meaning of a word does not create clarity.

Spiritus, you came at my post from totally the wrong direction. Check it out:

I said:

You responded:

By “no one gets to play,” I didn’t mean to say “atheists take the fun out of it for everyone,” or worse, “atheists deny everyone else the right to believe in the god of their choice.” What I meant was that by definition, there is no room for variation of beliefs within the confines of atheism. If you are atheist, you do not believe in any kind of spirituality. I know you disagree with that statement, but at least you can hopefully apply it to my above quote and understand what I was trying to say. The “field” I mentioned is the field belonging to a system of beliefs, not the field played on by all beliefs.

And now, I think, I really have tortured that metaphor to an agonizeing, screeching, caterwauling sort of death.

Continuing…

I said:

You responded:

I think the problem here is the definition of atheism as not believing in a god. Buddhism (in its purest form) has no god, but it is still a religion. Atheism is the denial of all religious belief. “Strong” atheism, to me, seems dangerously close to religious belief. According to the document cited above in MEBuckner’s post, it entails active disbelief. In my opinion, once you add any kind of active (dis)belief or faith into the mix, it is no longer true atheism. Again, you will no doubt agree. But please at least understand what I meant in my last post. Atheism does in fact mean lacking all religious faith. “A-”=no/not, “theo”=religion. If you have faith in any kind of spirituality you are no longer an atheist. And I would argue that faith in the absence of spirituality is far enough removed from true atheism that it should not be called atheism.

Okay, maybe my definition of “Atheism” was a bit strained, but sometimes I get a little tired of the other strained definitions that try to describe a lack of belief as a “belief” itself.
Maybe this definition will suit you better-
I am an Atheist because I don’t believe in Odin.
I am an Atheist because I don’t believe in Zeus.
I am an Atheist because I don’t believe in the IPU.
I am an Atheist because I don’t believe in Santa Claus.
I am an Atheist because I don’t believe in the Christian “god”.

When I grew up, I learned the diference between make-believe and reality. I learned that fairies, genies, and “gods” that grant wishes are not what get you through life. I acquired the ability to reason. I figured out that if the concepts of The Invisible Man and Superman and The Spectre were imaginary, then the ridiculous concept of an Invisible Super-Spectre! was something best left for badly written comic books.

You see, if you want me to believe in the improbable concept of an invisible being that can do anything, you first will have to disprove all the other “god-beings” who claim lesser powers, and are thus, logically, less improbable.

They only want me to believe that 2+2=5. You want me to believe that 2+2=orange.

And I meant that you were wrong. This is shown in the extended metaphor (screaming in agony, now, from continued torture) by the different perspectives of agnostics, strong atheists and weak atheists. In terms of set theory, ~{Religion} has more than one element.

Nothing in the word or the concept supports your idea that all positions which do not include religion must be identical. In fact, agnostics also fit your etymological understanding of the term (always dangerous, BTW. Etymology is a guide to historical development, not a straightjacket for meaning.)

Active disbelief need not imply faith, but I understand your unease. Indeed, you are not the first person on this board to suggest that strong atheism is a faith-based attitude. Since I am not a strong atheist, I will leave it to another to answer that in detail. I will note, however, that the axioms of materialism do not deal with religion. Still, the reason that I am not a strong atheist is that I find that position no more rationally defensible than religious faith.

That’s just my opinion, of course. Many smart people disagree with me (on both counts).

Well, I generally avoid making pronouncements about the beliefs of other people. A strong atheist might well quibble that belief in a supernatural metaphysic is distinct from belief in no supernatural metaphysic.

For my part, I am usually content to allow people to choose their own labels, though I may ask for clarification on the specifics of their position.

Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi:

and

Point taken, and I agree with you for the most part. But I would agree with you completely if we were talking about a religion. Atheism is not a religion, nor should it include any characteristics of religion, lest it cease to be atheism.

Christian 1: “You’re not a real Christian…you’re going to Hell with all the rest of 'em.”
Christian 2: “How dare you! I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ! You’re the one who’s going to Hell!”

Jew 1: “You’re a terrible Jew.”
Jew 2: “How dare you! I live my life strictly according to the Torah and the traditions my parents taught me! I am a member of the chosen people!”

“Atheist” 1: “You’re not a real Atheist.”
“Atheist” 2: “How dare you doubt my belief in nothing at all! I strictly adhere to a long tradition of nothing! I feel the power of nothing flowing through the universe, which might not even exist!”

I know, I know, this is an eggregiously oversimplified analogy. What I want to point out is how strange it is that the anger “strong” atheists feel when their faith is attacked is so similar to the anger experienced by the religious when their own beliefs are questioned.

To add one more totally needless and overly simplified analogy, being a strong atheist is like saying “I don’t eat meat. Only Pork.”

But I realize we are coming to that sad time when the debate starts to run out of steam and no one seems to have anything new to say…

You have made me curious, though…what do the pieces of “agnostic” literally mean? “Atheist” is obvious enough that even an amateur etymologist such as myself can interpret it on the spot.

Has this ever happened to you? I cannot recall a single instance where another atheist has questioned or criticized me for being atheist. Actually, in this example, Atheist 1 is a lot more suspect for making such a statement.

Try looking at it from a different perspective. Above you have pointed out the “anger” that atheists feel when their lack of religion is attacked. This is human nature isn’t it?
On the other hand, how many atheist preachers do you know? Or atheist scholars studying the atheist way? Or how about atheist missionaries? I certainly have never heard of any.
Most if not all incidents where an atheist speaks of the idea behind his or her lack of religion are through confrontation with someone with religion. Whether s/he does it strongly or weakly is based on an individualfs personality rather than the passion for a belief.
IMHO, the very “strongest” atheist is still not even remotely close to the hardest hard line religious fundamentalists.

You might note the conversation spiritus was just in on the previous page, where kyomara(i believe) mentioned that “strong” atheism is religious in nature though it has no god. AKA-- “You are not a real atheist.”

But anyway, I’ve gotten some mild flack for being an atheist just about everywhere I’ve been. To remove this from (christian in this example)religion in general would prove difficult, because it would mean all sorts of contradictions with scripture. For example, morality iis not subjective, thus we can’t just say “Well, that’s his way, Jesus/God will understand.” Because they won’t, unless you change the way you interpret the bible. But if we all interpret the bible differently, then morality is subjective and you can forget about telling people they are wrong because God said so.

Any religion which has a written holy document outlining actions will fall prey to this, IMO.

BUT, to answer the OP—do atheists deserve respect? No. No one deserves respect. Even if we could devise a clear-cut definition of “respect” as it is meant in this thread I would still disagree.

CZARCASM –

To whom is this directed? And what does it have to do with the OP? No one is attempting to convert you to anything, or to convince you of anything. I have yet to see anyone wade in to say they give a rat’s ass what you do or don’t believe.

Pardon my asperity, but it seems to me that there are enough people willing to have this argument with you (or anyone) that you needn’t bother to pick this particular fight in a thread where it has little if anything to do with the question asked.

Nor do I eat vegetable.

My friend does not eat meat but does eat vegetables.

We are both acarnivores.

Strained enough for you? Strong atheism does (IMO) require an axiomatic leap. What I have not been able to get you address, however, is the idea that the aceptance of materialism (a very common grounding for strong atheism) as a complete metaphysic is categorically distinct from the acceptance of a religious metaphysic.

Now, the case for this is not straightforward for either side. You may well be able to build a convincing argument that strong atheism should be considered an element of religious metaphysics. But saying that it must be so because your personal etmological understanding of teh word “atheism” demands it is hardly sufficient.

As to “agnostic”, I would suggest you look up gnostic, gnosis, and gnosticism, but I’m afraid that would only encourage your unfortunate fascination with roots over meaning. Instead, I suggest you look up Thomas Huxley.

Wow. This thread has been hijacked by the People’s Republic of Semantics.

I think the OP makes an interesting and valid point. In my experience most of the religious people I have known see nothing wrong with mild proselytizing to non-religious people. I know they have good intentions and are trying to share something that is important to them. However, most of these same people would be offended and upset if (as the OP mentioned) an atheist tried to convince them that God didn’t exist.

I think many religious people view atheism as missing faith, rather than a conscious and fulfilling position. Nice religious people who make this incorrect assumption may act condescending (e.g. “how sad”) out of sympathy for your perceived crippled spiritual state, other religious people may feel threatened by your lack of faith and try to aggressively recruit you. It’s annoying, and it’s a double standard.

That was exactly the point of the OP. I Couldn’t have worded it better. Thank you.

Jodi, I have been told, both here in the SDMB and in “real” life, that because I am an Atheist I “believe” in something.
People who know nothing of my personal life have informed me that I am an Atheist out of ignorance, out of disappointment from belonging to the wrong religion, or even out of a love of Satanism. I am merely trying to establish why I do not believe in the Christian “god”, and what it would take for me to even consider believing in a “god”.

Never in my life have I “turned away” from religion. I have no more rejected God than Christians have rejected Superman, Santa Claus, or the IPU.

I am an Atheist because I am a Realist.

Not really, because in the case the term “acarnivore” would be correct. Neither of you eat any meat AT ALL. I am holding that strong atheists are not without some shred of religious (theist) feeling.

BUT

God Bless the PRS
From the actual east
To the really really west
You can’t call “the shore,” “the ocean,”
And “the beach” is not “the sea”
We must make a new terminology.

This is our national anthem.

You’re both right that I am quibbling needlessly over word meanings, and I’ll stop now. I still feel it’s incorrect for strong atheists to call themselves atheists, and even silly for them to then insist that they are, but in the end it’s none of my business (unless they ask me straight out if I respect them or not;) ) Perhaps this whole thing is more of a personal issue for me than I realized. By the way, aynrandlover got the point of the dialogue right…I wasn’t trying to imply that this sort of conversation happened a lot. I was only using it in an effort to explain myself, since I wasn’t doing very well using conventional means.

And I’m sorry I ended up hijacking the thread, NiceGuyJack. I know that is infuriating, and it wasn’t my original intention.

Finally…I’ll look up Thomas Huxley, Spiritus, but I’m confused as to why you just won’t tell me the answer instead of making snide remarks about “encouraging my unfortunate fascination with roots over meaning.” I live in a foreign country and have no ready access to good English dictionaries. Just tell me, man!!! :):slight_smile:

Czarcasm and other atheists:

I find the whole “is atheism a religion?” question (which has been beaten into equine hamburger already) to be one where some strong misunderstandings of terminology exist among the parties involved.

I present to you John Q. Strawman, who is a “sincere atheist.” He believes firmly that there is no god.

He is making a non-rational judgment on the basis of personal experience – establishing a belief structure, in other words. So he is making a faith-based judgment.

Vile Orb takes a somewhat different approach to the question. But he considers it as proven that there is no such thing as a god. This is a rational judgment, not a faith-based one.

Yourself, Czarcasm, Gaudere, David, and Spiritus Mundi have weighed the evidence presented by others in favor of there being a god – their god in particular, but all flavors of godhood that might have come within your purview. And you have found the evidence lacking for any acceptance, belief, or commitment.

That I believe you to be incorrect in your evaluation makes no mashed potatoes here. I must respect your ability to reason to your own satisfaction.

And, as I understand it, you feel no more bound to believe in the existence of a god on inadequate evidence than to believe in fairies dancing in your garden on the basis of the Conan Doyle researches.

If I were to present to you God in human form, able to satisfy all your demands and prove to you inequivocably that he is in fact the one true God, slumming among us humans, you would change your evaluation on the basis of convincing evidence.

Obviously, we Christians think that such a proof is available in the documentation of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the things He did, the words He said, etc. And equally obviously, you find that evidence to be lacking through historical accident, the tendency of humanity to formulate hero-legends, the fact that the entire documentation is written with a biased perspective, etc. But don’t be too sure – the century is young yet, and I have a request in for Him to drop by and give you the proof you want, in His own good time. :wink:

The point I would make is that the “dogmatic atheist” is in fact making a belief-based judgment, albeit in favor of the absence of an object of belief. The “pragmatic atheist” – in which group I would place all of you and Vile Orb as well – takes a rationalist perspective.

You differ from agnostics in that you refuse to accept the potential existence of something not proven, at least until such proof becomes available. An agnostic simply submits an “insufficient evidence – not proven” verdict; you say that the case must be dropped without prejudice on the grounds of insufficient evidence.

How close am I to the truth there?

Poly
You have slightly misstated the positin of a “traditional” agnostic. Huxley’s arguments addressed the provability of the question, not the current state of proof.

I have no real issues with your characterization of my position.

Regarding “strong atheists” I think the fact that you separate out “rational” one’s like VileOrb from “faith-based” ones is pretty illuminating. The delineation you are trying to make is not inherent in the category. The strong atheism does not imply a faith-based position.

Now, regarding the question of whether a faith-based atheism “deserves” to be called atheism, it seems to me the question hinges upon whether said faith is sufficiently similar character or object ro “religious faith”. As I said above, this is by no means a slam dunk for either side. Frankly, I don’t find the questio all that interesting. I was simply responding to what I felt was an unwarranted declaration that strong atheists are “wrong” to call themselves atheists.

I feel similarly about declarations that Mormons should not call themselves Christians or milk-drinkers should not call themselves vegetarian.