(Not sure which forum to put this. It likely has a GQ level answer but being religion, I figured GD. Mod feel free to place elsewhere if you think otherwise.)
So during a discussion last night about stories within the Torah (Old Testament to many of you), and how which stories we highlight and how defines the values we want to highlight for our group, I made mention of the importance and highlighting of being able to argue with God (to the degree that Jacob was allegedly given the name “Israel” specifically because it means “he struggles with God.” My point was that arguing, even with God, was thereby placed as a high cultural value (in contrast for example to the more common warnings about hubris common in Greek mythology).
The counterpoint was “Sure they argued. But they never won any of the arguments. What does that say?”
And I was surprised but I couldn’t think of any stories in which the Biblical character won their argument. Closest I could come up with was Abraham’s arguing on behalf of Sodom and Gomorrah, but he only succeeded in getting his own nephew (Lot) and his family spared, and even Lot’s wife finally not. Hardly counts as a win.
Any times the characters of Torah win when they argue with God?
(Yeah, it’s Shabbat and some of those who might know best won’t answer today, I know.)
Dunno about the Bible, but the Talmud has a famous one :
Basically, the rabbis tell God to piss off because he’s out of his jurisdiction on this specific matter. Or, to put it a lawyerly way, because they’re strict textualists while he argues the intent of his own law :).
Moses got G-d to back down on his threat to wipe out the Israelites and start over the “chosen people” concept from him alone. it happened at least twice, once after the Golden Calf incident:
When Moses was on Mt. Sinai, he was gone for long enough that Aaron (who was temporarily in charge) went off the rails in a really big way. (This is when the golden calf was made.)
“And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.” (Exodus 32:9-14)
Sure, God does put all humans in their place, Job and his friends, but the reader or the listeners of the tale still have information (information that god never told Job or his friends) that told them in context that God was ultimately responsible for what took place and his long “how powerful I am” speech does not take away the point that winning a bet with satan does not leave god off the hook.
What he did to Job was indeed shitty and while he had reasons to rip Job a new one, in the end God does tell the friends of Job essentially that “Well, I’m right on putting him down, but the bastard has a little itsy bitsy point”… God then restored all what Job had lost and got more than before.
When God was all set on destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham managed to talk him into sparing the city if fifty righteous men could be found living there, then proceed to bargain him down to 10.
Didn’t matter much in the end, of course. But I’d call successfully haggling with God winning an argument, even if the price still couldn’t be met in the end.
Yep his sons and daughters, :eek: (what about the lessons they needed to learn? Never mind that, they were expendable) but I have seen arguments that point that that bigger injustice was a case of the Bible being more metaphorical than literal. IOW God can restore what was lost, not that I believe that explanation (I’m fan wanking here ) , but since we are talking about a god that claims that he knows who is who even before birth, it should not had been an issue to make sure Job got his previous sons or daughters back.
Either by rebirth or by the more convenient way of they not being dead all along, after all it was a whirlwind the thing (god in this episode BTW) that “killed” the sons and daughters. But I have to notice that no bodies were collected, just the word of someone that conveniently escaped the “disaster”.
I’m not so sure. My understanding has always been that G-d wasn’t changing his mind, he was simply revealing, through his give-and-take with Abraham, that Sodom, Gomorrah, et al (there were five cities - many don’t remember that) don’t have the requisite ten righteous. But that had always been his criteria, even if Abraham didn’t realize it before starting with fifty.
Moses, he argued not to wipe everyone out when they screwed the pooch.
Noah made god promise no more global eradications
The Jews as a whole, they argued for a king when god was not ready to give one yet.
Abraham, argued for not destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, he only lost because he could not find the 10 needed, he argued all the way down to just 10 righteous people though.
Yes, God knew already that Abraham would not find even 10, but he still allowed him the chance.
You could say this does not count, but if you asked me for a chance at something, and i already know that you wont succeed, that does not mean i have not at least given you every possible chance, nor does it mean if you pulled off a miracle that i would renege on my promise.
Hezekiah asked God to let him live a bit longer, God gave him 15 more years.
Wannit it Lot who bargained God down from ten men to two? (But he couldn’t even find two, so he still mostly loses the argument. And his wife. And his honor…)
I remember that there were five cities – the cities of the plains – but I can never seem to find their names. Did these include Mamre and Zoab?
No, at least not that I’d seen. Lot does convince the destructive angels to hold off for a bit on destroying Bela, also known as Zoar, but I think that was merely a brief reprieve, so Lot could stop there to rest while escaping the overall destruction (though I’m not 100% sure of that, when Moses mentions the destroyed cities to the Israelites in Deuteronomy 29:23, he lists only the other four).
Close on the last one - Sodom and Gomorrah are, of course, the ones that everyone knows, and the other three are Admah, Zeboyim, and, as mentioned above, Bela/Zoar.
I have a question back. What was the goal of your discussion? I’m asking, because I know that so many people do choose to interpret the arguments between Yahweh and individual men in the OT, not as the man winning, but as the god “testing” the man, but that no matter the seeming outcome, it was always the god’s unchanging will that it be so.
In other words, if the reason for the question was to find out if there are Biblical lessons which are taught via an argument between man and god, with the man APPEARING to win, then the answer is clearly yes. But if you were trying to prove to someone who is sold on the “god is always right and is unchanging” concept that the god changes their minds at man’s behest, then you wouldn’t convince them of anything.
I realized soon after I posted … no work tomorrow threw my mindset off into thinking today was Saturday.
Meanwhile Kobal2’s contribution had been the subject of a thread here back in 2005!
To our scholars - is there any commentary that reads the binding of Issac story as having a subtext of saying “Abelah … you were supposed to argue with me, my boychik!”? Certainly I think many read that story today with disappointment that he did not. It is an interesting character development that Abraham who argued with God over Sodom and Gomorrah then did not when it came to being willing to sacrifice his son. (Admittedly in the context of the time sacrificing a son was not such an unusual religious act.)
Also, how often, if ever, were these characters punished for their direct to God backtalk? (Not for lack of faith or breaking the laws but for the arguing?)
And lastly, historically did Jewish intellectual thought always emphasize the arguing with God stories, or is that a more recent development? In that old thread it is pointed out that while the usual take on that Talmudic tale may now be to emphasize that Torah is no longer in heaven, it can also be, and perhaps once was, read differently.
igor frankensteen, the context of the discussion last night was talking about which stories (myths if you will and take no offense at the word) most define Jewish culture, having started with the Exodus story of Pesach and how that story, especially as told in the modern Seder versions, is so quintessential to Jewish identity, and continuing into how the emphasis on the stories of protesting God’s decisions and arguing with God also reflect/transmit a cultural value. The other person of the discussion was raised Irish Catholic (in Ireland) converted as an adult marrying a Jewish woman.
I do think that the Christian spin and the modern, (perhaps especially American) Jewish spin on, and emphasis of, those stories are slightly different.
It isn’t in the Qur’an, but in a hadith: Prophet Muhammad has been taking a tour of Heaven, meeting the former prophets including Moses, and finally getting to talk directly with Allah. Who imposes on Muhammad and his people the duty to pray 50 times a day.
On the way back through the heavens, he runs into Moses again. Moses goes, “Did you talk with Allah? What did you get?” Muhammad answered: “To pray 50 times a day.” Moses says “That’ll never work out. It’s way too much. Go back up there and ask for it to be lightened.”
So Muhammad goes back to talk with Allah and when Moses sees him again, he goes “What’d you get?” Muhammad says “Forty times a day.” Moses says, “That’s still too much. Go back up and get it lowered some more.” Muhammad gets it down to 30 and Moses sends him back. He gets it to 20 and then 10 in the same manner.
Finally, when Muhammad tells him “This time I got 5 prayers a day,” Moses tells him to try again. But Muhammad says, “Nope, I’m good. I feel too shy to go pester Allah about it any more times.”
So that is the story of why Muslims pray 5 times a day.
) , but since we are talking about a god that claims that he knows who is who even before birth, it should not had been an issue to make sure Job got his previous sons or daughters back.