A not very observant Jew once joked to me that arguing and bargaining is part of Jewish tradition because studying the Torah involved “arguing with God”. Not clear if this was meant in a literal or rhetorical sense, or maybe he was just joking around.
Judaism is a religion of laws. With laws, there are lawyers arguing over legal minutia. This could be interpreted as arguing with God, but I think of it more as discovering God’s real meaning.
I think it’s part of many religions to look for and exploit loopholes in the dogma.
Christians used to purchase no-questions-asked tickets to heaven from the Pope. Muslims can get around the premarital sex ban by marrying prostitutes, then divorcing them afterwards. I’m sure there are loads of similar examples in any religion with a written creed, and I’m sure the Jews have quite a few of their own.
It’s kind of funny to imagine them believing that their all-powerful God has to be all like “Well played, Sir. You sure outplayed me there” instead of just smiting them because, y’know, “all-powerful”, and “will not be mocked”.
The idea of people arguing or bargaining with God (and God apparently not disapproving of it) can be found in the Bible. See Genesis 18:16-33: Abraham arguing with God over the fate of Sodom; and maybe also Genesis 32:22-32: Jacob wrestles with God.
Yes, it is absolutely a Jewish tradition that you can argue with God. In addition to the cites above, the book of Job is all about an argument with God.
A search found this book on Amazon: Arguing with God: A Jewish Tradition, as well as this previous Dope thread.
But I thought the message of Job was the futility of trying to argue with God. IIRC Job tries to argue, but on every point is met with, “Don’t like it? Tough shit, I’m God and you’re not.”
How is it premarital if they marry?
It is futile, but still allowed.
I think the point is that they marry the prostitute, have sex, and then immediately divorce them. That gets around the prohibition of premarital sex by making the marriage a sham. It’s technically permitted, but only because it’s not the type of marriage you’d expect.
Folks who aren’t Jewish bargain with God, too. But in my favorite bargaining with God joke, the characters are Jewish.
The nation of Israel, through Samuel, argued with God that he should give them a king “like other nations” instead of lifting up the occasional judge to lead them in times of crisis. God told them they would regret it, but he capitulated.
I believe “He will send your sons off to war, and ravish your daughters” comes into it somewhere.
Koxinga:
Well, just because you can argue with him doesn’t mean you’re going to win.
Abraham, for example (Genesis 18:16-33, cited above) argues with G-d that Sodom et al should be spared if a certain number of righteous people are present there. G-d agrees with him in theory, but knows there aren’t that many righteous people, therefore Sodom still got destroyed.
Job also argues but his argument too proves to be a losing one. Job’s complaint is that he has done nothing to deserve, as punishments, the types of suffering that were visited on him. The first three friends try different tactics to convince him that he’s wrong about that, but he remains steadfastly convinced of his righteousness (which we who have read the first two chapters of the book know is indeed correct). It’s not until the arrival and argument of Elihu (and later, a personal visitation from G-d in the whirlwind) that the argument falls apart - man’s scope is too limited to understand the full sweep of divine activity on Earth, and his sufferings have a purpose, albeit one that he cannot fathom, given his narrow tit-for-tat view of the relationship between man and G-d.
An interesting case is Moses, who argues with G-d and wins, in Exodus 32:10-14. The key here is that G-d actually implied to Moses that he had the power to keep G-d from destroying them by remaining to seek mercy on their behalf (verse 10, G-d says, “Now remove yourself from me so that I may destroy them”). There, G-d WANTED Moses to step up and put the peoples’ interests ahead of his own glory (G-d said that he’d make Moses himself into a greater nation than Israel after he’d destroy them).
I Samuel 8:10-19:
Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us."
The source material - Torah to jews, Old Testament to Christians - is the same, but which stories get emphasized and how varies much. It’s all in the spin.
Judaic tradition emphasizes Jacob wrestling with God (or at least God’s messenger) and winning. Thus his name, became Israel, “one who struggles with God.” We admire our heros more when they question God’s directives than when they blindly follow.
The difficult story for Jews is Abraham not arguing over the sacrifice he asked to make of Issac. God, schmod … argue! Debate! That lack of argument, that’s the part that troubles most in the Jewsih tradition. Some feel that Abraham was being tested … and failed.
Another story of the Talmud also illustrates the concept:
The myths we choose represent who we want to be, who we want our children to be.
“You CAN NOT Petition the Lord with PRAYER!”
-Jim Morrison
So, the answer is yes and no.
The witness of the Hebrew Scriptures is that you can attempt to argue with God, and if you’re Moses, you can win; otherwise, not only are you going to lose, but you’ll look like a fool and be reprimanded for it (Job); because God’s ways are so far above our ways (got, that, Job’s friends who wrongly thought they understood God’s designs?).
Moses withstood God…
Psalm 106:23 – Therefore he said he would destroy them — had not Moses, his chosen one, stood in the breach before him, to turn away his wrath from destroying them.
But God is sooooo transcendent…
Isaiah 55:8-9 – For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Now, since both these opposing traditions are in the scriptures, a pious Jew can chose either or neither. But one thing is for sure, they can argue about this… with each other.
But, what does God need with a starship?
The bolded part is it. The essence of being a Jew is to struggle, argue, wrestle with God.
I never asked a Rabbi about Abraham being told to sacrifice Issac, but why didn’t he tell G-d to take a hike?
And what must have happened afterwards-“Issac, we don’t have to tell your Mother about this” is not in Torah.