So my father some years back (maybe 20 years?) took a trip to the American West and picked up at auction an antique pistol that was part of a gift (with a matching cane) to a local lawman. I think it’s very handsome, but I have no interest in firing it, and I’m not even sure it can be fired. In general, do I need to report it to someone?
What state do you come from, pardner?
The Keystone State, Pennsylvania
IANAL and not sure how reliable this is. That said:
No, in fact in Pennsylvania it is actually illegal for any government or police agency to keep a registry of firearms per 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms). If you legally possess bring your firearms into the Pennsylvania or come into possession of the firearms legally, no further action is required.
It should be noted however that all transfers of handguns in Pennsylvania are required to go through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) and as such the Pennsylvania State Police keep a “Sales Database” of all handguns purchased within the Commonwealth. While almost any casual observer can see that this database clearly violates the spirit of 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms), in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed with the Pennsylvania State Police that because the database is not a complete record of all handgun ownership (as people bringing handguns into the state do not have to register them), it does not. -SOURCE
No you do not need to register a gun in Pennsylvania, in fact it is illegal for any government or police agency to keep a list of guns.
Pennsylvania Firearm/Gun Law (pafoa.org)
No, in fact in Pennsylvania it is actually illegal for any government or police agency to keep a registry of firearms per 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4 (Registration of firearms). If you legally possess bring your firearms into the Pennsylvania or come into possession of the firearms legally, no further action is required.
That’s…useful but disconcerting information. Thank you!
Additional niggling details you might want to consult your local LEO about.
Inherited weapons are one of the possible exceptions to requiring FFL to transfer ownership of firearms, but check with local law enforcement.
Antiques can be an exception as well depending on the age and provenance of said weapon.
Lastly, many early firearm styles aren’t regulated as severely, which is why you can buy most ‘black powder’ (modern replicas) rifles and revolvers without involving FFL.
But we don’t know quite enough about your situation to be sure, and I for one am not a A) Lawyer B) FFL holder C) LEO D) ATF rep.
Since I think the OP has been answered I wonder if there is an issue with insurance?
Both insurance from theft (if the firearm is valuable it may need to be itemized and maybe registered) and insurance if someone uses it to shoot someone (assuming it is still operable).
I have no answer about that but I think it is worth considering.
I’m sure @ParallelLines is aware of this, but just for clarity’s sake the key issue here is usually not the black powder, but whether or not the powder is separate from the bullet or if it is all contained in a single cartridge. An “old west” gun (per the OP) could be either.
If you have an old west revolver that is the cap and ball type, what this means is that it loads kinda like an old Civil War era musket. You put gunpowder (specifically black powder, which has less energy than modern gunpowder) into one of the chambers in the cylinder, then put either a round ball or a bullet shaped projectile on top of the powder, ram it into place with the ramrod that is usually built into the revolver, then cover it all with grease to keep it in place. Then you put a percussion cap on the back of that chamber, and that chamber is now ready to fire. Yippee! Now you get to repeat that 5 more times.
This was the type of revolver that was typically used in the earlier days of the Old West.
After the Civil War, improvements in the manufacture of brass made brass cartridges practical. So then instead of loading each chamber in the cylinder, they would put the powder into a brass case, pack a bullet into the top of the case, squish it all down so that it stayed together nice and tight (no need to grease things now), and install the percussion cap at the back of the case. Now you have the modern “bullet” (technically a “cartridge”). It takes a lot more effort to manufacture a modern style cartridge, but when you load it into the revolver, you just shove a cartridge into each chamber and you’re done. Easy-peasy.
Cartridge revolvers were popular in the later days of the Old West.
So basically, an “old west” weapon could be either type.
If you don’t know anything about firearms, it’s fairly easy to tell the two apart.
A cap and ball revolver will have “cones” on the back of each chamber, which is where you put the percussion caps (actually they were called “nipples” back in the day but most people call them “cones” today just to stop the juvenile giggling that tends to result by using their former name).
This is what it looks like with a percussion cap installed:
If your revolver cylinder looks like this instead, then it fires cartridges, and is regulated like a modern handgun regardless of its age:
Cap and ball revolvers are not regulated like modern firearms. In most states you can order one and have it delivered to your home, even if it is a modern reproduction. In contrast, a cartridge revolver would have to be shipped to an FFL.
Technically all it takes to convert a cap and ball revolver to a cartridge revolver is swapping out the cylinder. In practical use though that almost never works. Modern gunpowder burns a lot faster and produces significantly higher pressures in the chamber than black powder. The frame of an old cap and ball revolver isn’t designed to handle that much stress, so shooting modern powder out of an old cap and ball revolver is most likely to just make the gun explode in your hand, which is generally not considered to be a whole lot of fun. So the lesson for today is don’t try to convert an old cap and ball revolver to use cartridges. You’ll probably just hurt yourself.
From the look it’s the cartridge type. I’ll try and post a photo tomorrow if anyone is further interested.
Yes, please.
Very interesting, thanks - my “I learned something new today” and it’s barely sun-up. I love the trivia here. 60 years of watching westerns and I don’t recall Hollywood ever showing anyone loading a revolver with powder - always just brass cartridges. (about when did cartridgs replace hand-loading?)
Yes, but I really didn’t want to type out the details which you thankfully did for me! Another win for laziness! Honestly, I just wanted to bring the issue up, and figured we’d go into more detail once the OP got us photos or more detailed model information, which would let us further dig down.
Shortish answer to a somewhat nuanced question: post 1869. Rollin White held a patent on bored through cylinders that was (with much controversy) used to hold breechloading revolvers in the hands of his licensees (including Smith and Wesson). After his patent was non-renewed in 1869, a much wider number of manufacturers could produce similar weapons, including the famous Colt Single action Army in 1873.
Not that metallic cartridges hadn’t been used earlier, for example the Henry Rifle, but your question was specifically about revolvers. And for more trivia, the term ‘hand loading’ has a much different connotation than cap and ball / percussion cap loading, but your intent was perfectly clear, so no worries.
To make things even more complicated, one of the reasons I ducked the details and went with ‘black powder’ firearms is that you can have a black powder flintlock (replica) from the (generally) pre-civil war era as well as a black powder percussion cap rifle (similar to what ECG described but single shot in a rifle format), and that’s leaving out even more antique options such as matchlock (circa American War of Independence) and wheellocks (c1500).
But by the era of the American westward expansion, and the fiction around the era, yeah, predominantly percussion cap ignitions with metallic cartridge technology rapidly replacing it as the superior technology (finances permitting).
For what it’s worth, Wild Bill Hickock carried two rather fancy Colt model 1851 Navy revolvers, which were cap and ball revolvers. You can buy modern reproductions of them.
They are very slow and tedious to reload, which I assume is why he carried two of them. He carried them “backwards” (with the pistol butts facing forward) so that he could draw them faster. This is known as a “cavalry draw” since it was popularized by the cavalry during the U.S. Civil War.
More antique, yes, but the American War of Independence used flintlocks, not the older matchlocks. Flintlocks dominated the battlefield from the 1600s to the early to mid 1800s, when they were replaced by percussion locks of the Civil War era. The two most common weapons if he American Revolution were the British “Brown Bess” flintlock musket and the French “Charleville” flintlock musket, which is actually a misnomer. The first batch of French muskets that the U.S. purchased happened to be made at the arsenal in Charleville, France. After that, we kept calling them Charleville muskets regardless of which arsenal actually made them, and (in the U.S. at least) the name stuck.
You can buy modern reproductions of all of these. Since the powder is separate from the bullet, you do not need to go through an FFL and in most states you can have them shipped directly to your door. They are not regulated by the NFA and in most states they are not considered to be legally defined as a firearm.
You’re right, I was being sloppy when I checked the timeline to try to give timeframes in terms that made sense. Thanks for the correction!
So OP, we are waiting for pics and deets, let us know!
Sorry for the delay, I’m wrestling with learning Imgur
Here’s the matching cane
Sorry for the multi-post. Do these look all right?
It looks like a pocket revolver from the 1870 to 1880-ish time frame. It’s definitely a cartridge revolver. Does it have any markings on it (other than the name on the grip, that’s probably the owner’s name)?
It looks like the sort of thing a gambler would have carried around. It’s not very powerful as far as weapons go, but you definitely would not want to get shot with it at close range.
Check the cane very carefully. It might contain a concealed weapon. Cane guns were legal in the late 1800s.
The handle says “Luzerne Co. 1877” on one side and “Sheriff P.J. Kenny” on the other. Let me recheck the cane. It’s been fitted with a rubber bottom so perhaps not.