Do martial arts actually help defend a person in real attacks?

And that, in a nutshell, is the difference between a trained fighter (of any art) and an experienced one. The reality is that no matter how well trained you are, in a real fight there is a good chance you are going to be struck and take damage. Indeed, the major focus of pugilism isn’t just throwing punches but being able to take a blow and transfer the impulse away from you (shedding or grounding). There is simply no substitute for having been subject to enough punches that you know that a bloody nose or a kick to the nuts won’t kill you, and to respond in an immediate, effective, and decisive manner. And there really isn’t any way to teach this within a conventional “respectful” martial arts dojo. It isn’t that the technique isn’t useful–although you have to realize that fine motor skills go to crap when the adrenaline starts flowing, and anything that isn’t ingrained to the point of instinctual response is going to fail, and usually fail badly–but technique is only useful if you can remain in the position to execute it, which for most striking arts is on two feet. This is why streetfighters–many of whom have the technique of an orangutan, and usually smell as bad–frequently overwhelm trained but inexperienced fighters. (The other is that most martial artists have been trained to pull their blows in practice, and thus, instinctively pull them in fights).

The most effective fight I’ve ever been in was before I ever studied any martial art, when I was nine or ten. At the community pool in the shower room I was surrounded by a bunch of larger kids and confronted by a boy a grade senior to me who imagined some slight I’d done to him. He punched me in the shoulder and, without thinking, I drove an uppercut right into his throat and upper jaw. He literally came off the ground (more, I would guess, from surprise than the strength of the blow) and was laid out stunned on the ground, and the crowded parted before me like the Red Sea for Moses. I’ve been in a handful of real fights since–largely because I wasn’t cognizant enough to get the hell out of the way of trouble that was coming toward me like a freight train–but despite several years of intensive training I don’t think I’ve ever had quite such a stunning reversal of fortunes, even over the tweaker who thought poking a pistol in my ribs made him some kind of superstar.

The honest answer to the question posed by the o.p. is that (good) training gives you the instincts and technique, but not necessarily the motivation, to respond to violence effectively. That comes only from experience, and you will not get this in a school (or at least, not one I would care to attend).

Stranger

Especially if you threaten to not offset the carbon emissions.

This news report from Australia seems to fit with the theme of this thread:

Not really. Fake ninjas, a bunch of yelling with no fighting, and the bad guys run away because they are outnumbered.

Well, in this thread people have noted that the aim of martial arts is to neutralise the threat with minimal intervention (which certainly occured in this case), and that street fights often come down to a numbers game (whoever’s outnumbered will likely lose regardless of their skill). Plus the importance of attitude has been noted - i.e. look like a badass and people make a judgement based on that.

Mainly I thought it would be a bit of levity for a thread full of a fair amount of earnest testosterone. Ah well.

Gary Larson has considered this question.

Just down the road from me:

Ninjas to the rescue

The culprits have been arrested.

Just as I thought. Two “men”(one was 16) run away when a large group of men run towards them. While I’m sure that their “ninja” master is going to milk this for all it’s worth, I’m just as sure those muggers would have run away if the five guys had come from a cooking school dressed in chefs outfits.

I see your point. I once proudly regaled people with the story of how I had bravely stopped a drunk from harassing a woman in a city mall. Although everyone else was ignoring it I, being an ex-psych nurse, walked over and told him to fuck off and shepherded him away from the woman.

Someone said, “Didn’t you say your son was with you?”

And then I realised that the drunk wasn’t confronted by me. He was confronted by me and my 6’ 4" 300 plus pound son. So my heroic tale ended up quite mundane.

None the less mugging someone outside a ninja dojo is pretty damn funny.

No less funny than a public “ninja” dojo. :smiley:

One of the things about the exercise of restraint is knowing when not to use it.

Anecdote time.

A friend of mine is a serving Royal Marine. He got beaten up by a large group outside a pub. All his training didn’t let him win - though it likely saved him from worse. Too much alcohol, too many opponents. However, a year or two later, he was in the same pub with another RM. Both were just back from tours of duty. Another drinker advised them that he had overheard a group of yobs planning to attack them. So when they left, they were prepared. The group did indeed attack them, but they started yelling, “We’re Royal Marines and we’re just back from Iraq and we’re going to rip your balls off!” And worse. And they chased the yobs up the high street. The key points were that they were prepared and there were two of them, so they could guard each other’s backs.

Not without serious training in real disciplines, and rarely (if ever) even then.

You’re forgetting EARLY mixed tourneys here, where you had 300+ pound sumo wrestlers in with middleweight kickboxers. As a rule, the kickboxers won. The dominant fighter in the first UFCs was a 175-pound guy who ended most of his fights–mostly against the aforementioned barroom brawlers or, to be fair, form-based karate guys–in under two minutes because they had no idea what they were doing.

The MMA you’re used to seeing is a much more highly evolved form, where nearly everyone has a lot of coaching in wrestling, Brazillian jiujitsu, and kickboxing (usually muay thai). Very few of them (if any) are raw streetfighters. You can point to Tank Abbott here or Kimbo Slice, but the former never beat a credible opponent (unless you count Steve Jennum, which I don’t) and the latter has had heavy training from Bas Ruttan and others–and still washed out.

As has been said, in anything resembling a fair fight, the trained fighter is going to have an enormous advantage all things being equal, and will probably hold his own against someone with a size advantage.

The real point is that true fair fights are rare. If it gets violent, weapons, sneak attacks, and help from buddies are going to come into play more often than not, and our culture has changed to an extent that non-douchebags usually defuse the “you think you’re better than me” chest thumping that barroom patrons often speak of. When the other guy has a gun (that you can’t get away from him with krav maga or something), you’re toast. If a guy whacks you from behind with a chair, you’re a goner. This is true be you Brock Lesnar or Stephen Hawking.

Remember, they all have 9" knives.

Less humans = less carbon emissions. Even Al Gore would back me on that.

What was it that Goldfinger said about Odd Job? (Anyone else actually read the James Bond novels?)

“Ah, Mister Bond. Karate will help you win against a bigger opponent. But if you both know karate, it’s like any other fight. The big man will win against the small man.”

I suspect some training always helps, but the real story is whether the fighter has the killer instinct (berserker?) or whether they are too concerned about either getting hurt, or in our civilized society, perhaps hurting the other person too much.

I also wonder about these 95-lb women or 12-yo kid who is getting her “black belt”. What the heck does that mean, if someone that small and weak can get one too? I suspect any stories of a tiny martial arts expert winning against a bigger man comes from overconfidence on the part of the attacker.

In all my years, I have never been in a real fight, nor seen any actual killer fights where one or both are out to do maximum damage. But then, I rarely frequent bars, let alone ones that have big guys who pick fights.

I agree, if someone catches you by surprise, odds are you will not be in a position to respond, Hollywood notwithstanding. However, the mitigating circumstance would be if the guy was too drunk to aim properly, and what looked like a surprise knock-out blow was just an inviatation to dance.

The most serious fight I was in, at age 14, started with the guy landing what looked like a killer crotch kick. He was actually (thank God) 2 inches to far right, and didn’t even bruise my thigh. I laughed at him, told him he was an idiot and useless, and kept walking; while everyone wondered how I was still standing. He didn’t even move as I walked away. The funny thing is, I have no recollection what the problem was, why he did it. He knew a friend of mine, I had never saw him before or since. The world is full of idiots.

md2000 said:

You are correct, mindset and willingness to commit is going to play a role. Just like if you pull a gun on someone to keep them from attacking you but then don’t shoot them and let them walk up to you and take it away. If you have to pull the gun, you must be prepared to shoot them, not let them keep getting closer to you. Similarly, someone attacks you, how far will you go to defend yourself?

It means whatever their instructor wants it to mean. Some schools it means you showed up and look pretty in your gi. Some schools you have to be able to break a 1" pine board held 1 ft above your head. Some schools it means you had to take a beating from all the other black belts.

The more salient point is does being small preclude having the skill to defend oneself? The answer to that is no. Yeah, sure, a 95 lb girl is not going to fare well in a straight up slugfest with a 250 lb muscle man. The point of martial arts is that you don’t engage in straight up slugfests. (Okay, boxing, but even that has technique to protect yourself.)

Surprise that they defend, aggressive defense overwhelms attacker before he can respond.

A fight anecdote I feel obliged to share, just because it’s funny. In seventh grade, another kid at school got into a fight with me for reasons I certainly can’t remember, and he probably can’t, either. He led with a kick, which I was able to grab and hold. So we’re standing there, me on two legs, him on one leg with me holding his other. And what does he decide to do next? Another kick, with his other foot (a move which I can only assume he had learned from a video game). Which had the predictable result.

Not that that proves anything, of course. Well, other than that kids can be idiots sometimes.

If they don’t have their hands on you, then it means to block if necessary. If they do have their hands on you, it means to get their hands off you by whatever means necessary.

Example: one of the simplest and most common attacks is someone grabbing you by the wrist and attempting to drag you.

Distract: slap to the face, or kick the leg, etc. The distraction takes their mind off the attack and loosens the grip on the wrist.
Release: weak-link release by yanking up strongly against the thumb
Stun: two punches
Run

The first part of that quote is a bit of an overstatement… I am and avid watcher of the UFC and have been since #1… before they instituted weight class` there has only been one 300+ sumo wrestler beaten by anyone and that happened in the UFC [URL=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zhQb_nkR0U”]Keith Hackney vs. Emmanuel Yarborough… and as you will see in the fight Hackney never actually hurts Yarborough and ends up breaking his own hand… so ya, Hackeny’s hand was raised at the end of the fight but he could not continue in the tournament… I doubt Yarborough had to see a physician because of the fight…

Other than that fight there are not many others with massive differences in weight…

also while Gracie did dominate UFC 1 and 2 with his skill… but when he ran up against Kimo in UFC 3 who was moderatly skilled but extremely strong… he was far from dominate and had to resort to pulling Kimo`s hair and head butting him… sure it was legal in the early UFC (as well as punching in the balls) but they are moves of desperation, not dominance… While he did eventually win the fight… he was unable to continue the tournament…

Ya I`m not a big Gracie fan… Here he is in his second last fight getting beaten soundly by Matt Hughes… if you watch it you will see a point at which Hughes has him in an arm bar and Gracie wont tap out because he knows that Hughes is too respectful of a person to break his arm, which he most definitely could have… but that in a nutshell sums up Royce Gracie to me… utter arrogance and no respect for his opponent…

I disagree with this… it has a lot to do with who is swinging the chair as well as the person who is getting hit…

I have seen people hit with a 2x4 and a cue ball in a sock that didn`t turn out well for the attacker…

in the situation with the cue ball, the guy came from behind at another guy at a party and most certainly connected with back of the guys head, but it didn’t even phase him… he turned around a beat the shit out of the guy… probably literally but I wasn’t checking any underwear… the weapon wasn’t nearly as effective as you would have thought… in this case I really think it was about the wielder smashing the guy`s skull properly… I certainly think I could with a cue ball in a sock…

In the 2x4 incident, also at a house party, a guy hit a friend twice quickly with a the wood and it knocked my buddy down… he didn’t keep hitting him just stood over him talking trash… we would have intervened, quite harshly, if he would have continued… but we knew what was gonna happen… our buddy got up and trashed the guy… this time it was most certainly about the person being hit… he wasnt a very big guy, about 5`8 160 or so, but he was tougher than nails because he had an asshole abusive father and by the age 13 was already used to being hit by a full grown man…

totally forgot to add this to the last post…

My reason for bringing up the weapons issue is that in any violent situation training or skill, speed and strength don`t count for as much as raw toughness…