Do women swoon over rockstars? Hell yes. But learning to play “Michael Row the Boat Ashore” isn’t going to make girls throw panties at you. You become “that” guy. So yeah, it’s unhealthful advice, and surprisingly bad advice given the preaching you’ve done in this thread about “agendas”.
LOL.
Because everyone can readily discern poseurs, and that’s what you’re advocating someone be. A big ole “I have a sexual agenda!” poseur. Even if no one hated poseurs, it’s still an unhealthy thing to be for one’s ego. I spent several months trying to teach myself guitar back in college and wasn’t successful with it. Good thing I didn’t have my identity riding on it.
Throwing out any ole kind of advice you can think of isn’t helpful, though. Bad advice is worse than no advice at all. And not every problem has an answer. Occasionally something like , “Bro, sometimes it just boils down to luck. You just gotta keep trying” is the only thing a person needs to hear.
I think engaging in activities is a great way to improve someone’s social life. But I’d say those activities have to be things that will benefit or enrich your life completely independent of who you think you may be impressing in the audience. You shouldn’t do yoga because you want to look like the kind of guy who is into yoga. You should do it because it makes you feel good. If you start doing it for the image rather than the substance, chances are you will turn more women off than you attract.
Right. So the advice is bad because playing the guitar *badly *isn’t going to help you? Have you heard me play the guitar? I can do better than “Michael Row the Boat Ashore”. And panty throwing? I’ve only ever seen one guy get panties thrown at him, and even then it wasn’t literally. Do you really think I expect panty-throwing?
Uh-uh, try again. That’s not what makes it suspect. I didn’t see you shut the horseback riding or musical theater poseurs down.
Yes, I’m kidding. But I’m also not kidding. I’m leading up to something.
No, what Voyager and I are saying is that if you are going to play the odds, go for things that are in your favor. Don’t get involved in an activity that is 90% men and wonder why you don’t meet women. And get involved in things that show you to your advantage - i.e. playing the guitar badly isn’t going to impress anyone in a room full of musicians.
I happen to not like motorcycles - but my type is not at all bad boy. I’ve never been a leather jacket and motorcycle kind of girl. I’m a geek boy wearing glasses kind of girl, I like a guy who can have discussions about economics or politics or history, someone who is well read - always have been. So when “nice” guys talk about how “bad boys” get all the girls, I wonder how much confirmation bias is taking place on the part of the nice guys - because I know I’m not unique.
I was composing a longer post, in reply to something else you asked, and I read this.
I honestly just have no idea what’s happening here. If anyone suggests an activity, they are suggesting an activity as a way of meeting more people, because meeting more people, expanding your horizons and your social circle, is a good way to meet people you may be compatible with.
It’s not because taking a Zumba class means you then have a dating resume that includes Zumba and chicks dig guys who can Zumba. The specific activities only matter so far as 1. you are interested in them, 2. you would be interested in the type of people who are interested in them, and 3. people will be present who you might be interested in.
It’s not about X being for manly men and Y being for metrosexuals and Z belongs on your resume. You are not compiling a resume. You are living a life. A whole life. A life that should include other people. Living, breathing other people with goals and dreams and desires and interests of their own. You’re trying to go out and find common space and common ground and fellow creatures you like who like you in return. So, if you think Zumba would be interesting, and you think people who like to Zumba would be interesting, and you think the local Zumba class would include people you might find interesting, maybe you go to the Zumba class. And while you’re there, you Zumba like a motherfucking Zumba god (or like an idiot, which is more my speed) and you enjoy yourself and you chat with people and you are cordial and you don’t stare at anyone’s ass or boobs and you talk to both men and women and you don’t ask everyone out within the first five minutes and you are a person who makes other people feel safe and good.
And you don’t do any of that so that you can later tell anyone that you did it. You will not get brownie points on the internet. No one will date you because you check a box called “Zumba class.” The reward is meeting people and doing Zumba. That’s it. That’s what you earn.
And it’s possible that at something like that Zumba class you might meet someone and hit it off and become friends. There is no guarantee. This is not your reward.
And it’s possible you might really hit it off with someone and start to date. This is also not your reward.
These are ways to extend yourself and your social life and hopefully have fun. They can be fodder for conversation and maybe funny stories. And when you’re meeting people, you might meet someone really neat. You might. But it’s not guaranteed. And if you sit there and think “What’s the point of Zumba if it can’t guarantee me a hot date at the end of it” then don’t fucking Zumba. The point of Zumba is Zumba.
You can fill in the Zumba blank with any activity that meets those three criteria.
Now I’m going to bed. And I’m considering taking up Zumba.
What about someone dogs naturally like, even timid ones? That would be a plus for me regardless of the person’s gender. When I took my soon to be wife home to meet my parents, we also stopped by a neighbor’s house (a crotchety “bachelor farmer” with a heart of gold. She got down in the dirt and played with the dogs. Later, he asked someone where I got that “old timey woman.” He was truly impressed.
OK, this part is true. Meeting people is good. Sitting at home by yourself is bad. I didn’t think of that. So: Listen to this, it’s sense.
But I’m still leading up to something.
Edit: Although, to be fair, I don’t think anyone has complained so far that they can’t physically *find *the women. We meet them all the time. The world is full of them.
This sounds a lot like ‘I see girls dating guys who do x, y & z. So I’m going to do x, y, & z’ and not at all like ‘I’d like to meet people and hopefully form a relationship, what are some good ways of doing that?’
I’m no expert at giving dating advice at all, but I can say that reductive analysis is not the way to figure out and replicate relationships.
Besides, those two quotes aren’t talking about the same thing at all. The first scenario is about how a man doing something he’s into that also just happens to be in an environment that has high chances of meeting available women has the odds in his favour. Simply as a numbers thing. So, his odds are better for meeting women with similar interests than if he was doing something much more male dominated.
The second scenario is about advising people who want to meet women to do activities that have similar ‘favourable odds’ environments.
I’m not entirely sure that the second is great advice. If you’re not interested in horse riding, but doing it in order to meet women with the hopeful idea that you won’t have much competition… Well, most of the time you can smell that kind of attitude a mile off. And it isn’t attractive.
Well, it’s not even confirmation bias, it’s just flat out bullshit. Almost everyone in the world are hooking up, and they’re not all James Dean. I know that.
When I said earlier:
One perfectly valid answer is: It was flying because there wasn’t a bomb on it. That’s basically all it takes. The bar really is that low.
The stereotype is a problem in several ways. One is that a lot of experiences and complaints are reduced to: “‘Nice’ guys talk about how ‘bad boys’ get all the girls.” Dismissal by appeal to bullshit.
But I don’t think our actual complaint is that. And reducing it to that may not be helpful. Most people “get the girl”, if that’s what this is even about. Plus, I’ve had relationships in the past, and will have them again. Sometimes I don’t have them. I want to understand all of that.
And I don’t just mean “how to get the girl”. I mean… I dunno. Being in the world, while behaving morally and being kind to other people. “How to get the girl” is just one question there. One of a vast multitude. It seems to be a dangerous one, though, since the resistance levels go off the charts when someone asks that one.
Anyway. I’m still waiting for monstro. Um, not romantically. But a response to a post. So now I’ll shut up until then.
I know exactly how you feel, because I heard that for years, and from the “before” side it sounds like the biggest Catch-22 of all time…but it’s not. Let me see if I can explain it better…
It’s not that you can’t find it when you’re looking for it…it’s that you can’t find it when you’re looking for it for the wrong reasons. If you’re looking for a partner to fill an emptiness in yourself, it will all end in tears, because another person can NEVER fill an emptiness in you. It’s just not possible…because it’s not really emptiness (even though it feels like it).
What it really is is pain, and fear, and despair; it’s all the bad thoughts and feelings you have about yourself that you don’t want to deal with, because to deal with them you have to feel them, and let’s face it: who’d want to feel all those nasty things? Who would WANT to sink into an old morass of “I’m worthless, I’m ugly, I’m not good enough to love, I don’t deserve happiness, I’ll always be this way,” and so on? No one wants to do that! You’d be nuts if you did. So we learn to “tune them out,” to block the pain, but you can only block pain by numbing your “nerves,” so you stop feeling anything in that area (which is why it feels empty). But it’s always there, lurking…and no one else will ever be able soothe that, because it begins inside us.
You’d think that a happy relationship could heal all that…as if being accepted would erase old feelings of rejections. Unluckily, though, it doesn’t work that way. The new acceptance feels good, but it feels strange. It’s weird, and alien, and we’re not used to it so it feels a little fake. And the old rejection-pain is still there, making us ache, only now we don’t know why it hurts because, heck, we’ve been accepted, why should we feel bad now? It makes no sense! And nothing we do seems to help - all the acceptance and reassurances we receive can’t make us feel better, so now we start to think maybe we’re crazy, too.
But we’re not crazy - we just have old injuries that never got cleaned out, so they’re all infected, and though we can “tune out” the pain, it’s still there, sucking up our system resources to deal with it all the time.
So those old injuries have to be drained. And though it seems like the last thing you’d want to do is touch those swollen, aching wounds, let alone stick a needle into them, once you do–once you start looking at those thoughts and feelings, observing them instead of sinking into them or frantically avoiding them–the old pains start to lose their power. It’s like an old horror movie that looks absolutely terrifying from the poster but when you you watch it, you see the shadow of the mic boom, see the zipper up the monster’s back, the wires holding the alien spaceship, etc.
Yes, I’m talking about therapy…though it could easily be self-therapy. Eidetic therapy is what helped me (it uses mental images to work through old ideas and feelings) but really, just learning to take one step back from painful thoughts, to observe them instead of getting sucked into them, helps immensely–and that can be done all by yourself. Like, I started to catch myself thinking, “I’m a loser,” and forced myself to rephrase it as, “I’m having the thought that I’m a loser,” I stopped being “A Loser™” and became “A person who has thoughts about being a loser” (and just that tiny smidge of distance started letting me think differently about myself). I learned to ask, “What do I really think/feel about myself? Why do I think that? Who first told me that/when did I first think it?”
So let me restate my premise here: it’s not wanting a relationship that’s the problem, it’s *needing *a relationship because you feel empty without one…that’s the thing that will repeatedly keep you from getting a relationship.
If that’s not your issue, then it just becomes a matter of logistics…and then all the practical advice about where to go to meet women and so forth becomes valuable.
Thanks for the last paragraph. That’s generally how I feel. I feel like nothing is entitled to me and I have to earn my life every day. It’s my job to be happy. It’s not a natural state. But it’s difficult when you feel you have heard all the advice, taken it to heart, continued to work on it, and then see results that don’t match. I don’t even mean doing things with the intention of having sex or having a relationship. I love all the things I do in my life for myself. I do them because I like to do them. And I hope that a partner would too. I could have stayed the introverted socially clueless teenager who liked to play video games and stay home and read. I felt my life was missing something. I’ve been lucky to explore so much in life (the arts, my career, travelling, music, fitness, dance), and these past few years have been so good because I’ve really fallen into a groove of doing things I love and doing them in a my own way. This includes things like being charitable (and yes charitable with my own blood, it’s just something to include on that resume, and it takes more of a stomach to do than to just give money. No it’s not on my dating profile)
In my own life I try hard to balance work responsibility with fun. The fun I have is great. In the span of one week I’m at yoga, multiple social dances, performing on my guitar, and going to concerts. In my dance circle I’m a popular guy. Same in my career. My whole school likes me (kids and adults), because I’m generally a positive guy to be around. And same goes for musicians. I’ve worked hard at my own development. People around me LAUGH.
Also when I say I go to church…I go to a Unitarian Centre because I am an atheist who believes in science (though I’m not evangelical and I’m flexible with a partner). My church is rad. No lies…on Valentines day they had a pole dancer there. They also support relief efforts in third world countries. So is my church still a turn off? No one can say my life is dull!
Also I time tested quote I remember reading when I was young. “To see how a man would treat his wife, consider how he treats his mother.” I really feel how a person gives back and interacts with his primary family demonstrates character. I hope someone else sees it as dedication.
So couple all of the above with being fit, financially secure, caring for my family, and a having a willingness to go with the flow, and experience new things, I just get so frustrated with why someone doesn’t want to share an adventure together with me. I want a partner to have a rockin’ awesome winning life. Where is she? Sometimes I feel I’ve been brave to face my inadequacies in the mirror, go through the pain, and evolve. And continue to evolve. I wake up every day wanting to improve myself. Doesn’t everyone? If you aren’t living you’re dying. I sometimes wonder if maybe I’ve isolated myself by going too far.
And to add a little more. This summer I’m taking 3-4 weeks to travel to Boston, Toronto, Denver, San Francisco, and maybe Portland. With plans to dance in every location(salsa, swing, etc) listen to music, go to yoga, read, visit micro-breweries, have awesome coffee, meet people in hostels, see the sights, and run a half-marathon over the golden gate bridge. I’ll be happy to have adventures with anyone I meet on the way. I’ll be doing some of the trip with friends, and some of the trip solo. Car rides, busses, planes, trains, hostels, hotels and couches. Maybe I’ll even have time to see a baseball game. When I get back I’ll be going on a canoe trip with freinds, and then being a professional musician for a week playing for a musical. I’m so excited. This is like a summer of my dreams. I feel so lucky.
Give a shout when you’re coming to Boston. I have a friend who knows all the local micro-brews, and I might even be able to point you in the right direction for dancing.
I didn’t shoot them down because those weren’t seriously presented as activities that women dig. (I also don’t think Voyager was being 100% serious.)
But the posters who threw out these ideas haven’t been scolding “nice guys” for most of this thread for having a creepy, perverted agenda. I was on board with your “don’t have an agenda” message, but then suddenly you veered off on the “Roman history isn’t sexy but guitar-playing is!” track. Seems to me if someone is intentionally trying to be sexy, they have an “agenda”.
How does saying “Don’t do something simply to attract people, because chances are you’ll look inauthentic and turn them away” translate into “you’ll find it when you stop looking for it”? I’m confused.
I agree that it’s bad advice, which is why I’m not advocating that.
Nor do I think “be yourself” is the way.
But if you’re going to do something, do it for you. Not because you think the image of you doing it is sexy. (What the fuck does that even mean?!)
Like most everyone, I’ve always been very busy, with limited time to pursue leisure activities. So while I was single, I started with the set of all the things I was genuinely interested in trying, and prioritized the ones that were more social, more likely to be shared with people my age, and more likely to have women involved.
For me, it worked out splendidly because there were so many things I was interested in doing, but I only really had time for… 2.
That said, I completely agree with your point that you shouldn’t do anything because you want people to think you are the type of guy who likes it. That’s not going to fool anybody and even if it did it sounds like a recipe for disaster.
On the other hand, it’s really difficult to meet people once you’re out of school. Coincidentally all my best relationships, including my marriage, were introduced by mutual friends, but even so I don’t regret prioritizing hobbies that tended toward being more social, more female and more youthful.
If you’re a 20-something or 30-something-year-old guy and you set out to take guitar lessons, you’re not going to attract women who are “into” guitar-players.
But you might attract women who are into guys who aren’t afraid to try their hand at something new. In this case, it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the guitar or your “sexiness” with it, and everything to do with being the type of person who is brave enough to learn something new, whether you look sexy doing it or not.
Years ago, I used to struggle to make conversation with people. Not because of shyness, but because I didn’t have anything to talk about. People would ask what I’d done over the weekend and all I could say was a very honest but disappointing “Nothing!” Frustrated by my boringness, I started doing stuff. I took up a pottery class. Played in the local community orchestra. Joined a yoga studio. I started selling my artwork in a public venue.
Suddenly, I became more interesting. I had more confidence when talking to people because I knew I was “armed” with fodder for conversation. And because I knew my sphere overlapped with multiple things and groups of people, I could connect with others on multiple levels rather than just one (work-related business).
If you can already play the guitar, hell yeah, showcase your talent. But that goes for just about anything you do well. A fully mature woman isn’t going to be impressed by an act or an image. She’s going to be impressed by impressiveness–which could be anything from an impressive attitude (being the clumsiest guy in the yoga class but not giving a fuck) to an impressive talent (being a Roman history geek who doesn’t give a fuck).
Look, never mind, it doesn’t matter. I just don’t want to be the one who says it. It’s better if someone else does. It’s more Socratic that way.
This thread has been something of a manic episode for me. I’ve never really done anything like that on the Dope, or maybe anywhere. And I’m never doing it again. That was a *lot *of posts, and for stretches it has been just me talking. But I’m not exactly sorry about it. Clearly, I needed to sort something out. Something was bugging me.
So now I have. I have a conclusion I’m happy with. It’s nothing new, profound, or even all that interesting. I just had to get there by myself, I guess, as opposed to just hearing other people say it. Which is why I don’t really want to say it now.
Maybe I’ll PM Robot Arm about this, run it by him, and if it’s something that makes sense to him, I might post it.
But it’ll be a little while. I’m exhausted. I’m done. And at peace, for now. See you guys around.
No one can say my life is dull!
But still, I’m only speaking for myself.