It does appear that there are participants in this thread, notably one in particular, who are intent on cockblocking this entire conversation.
I don’t know if you mean me, if you do you are being very rude. I’ll say again: I worked for an organisation that organised sex for clients, and it was a Christian organisation. I fully support that. If it were an issue in an organisation I worked for I would work to support the clients wishes in any way I could. This was not in the US though, where I get the idea that sexual hang-ups are far more complex.
It just creeps me out that the tone of this thread keeps going to “surely if I can’t do this myself someone should be obliged to do this”. That’s a creepy, underlying thought. It’s barely expressed out loud, but found in the incredulity that people express at the situation. That’s the only thing I object to. Even just expressing the idea that nurses should do that (to obtain a sperm sample?!) implies that little thought has been given to the complexities of consent and coercion, which is creepy.
I’m sorry if this has already been explained but I’m stuck on one issue. You are wanting someone to come help you masturbate but I’m still not clear on what that peson would do for you, as far as sexual release or satisfaction. You do or don’t have sensation in your penis? And you are or aren’t capable of erection? And you are or aren’t capable of orgasm? I ask these things because many men with spinal cord injury have no ability to feel their genitals, much less achieve and maintain erection(without the use of therapeutic aides) and certainly no ability to ejaculate and orgasm.
if you can’t do it yourself, you need to have a friend, a good friend obviously, to help you out. Otherwise, you are SOOL
very well said!! Just because someone is completely paralyzed, doesn’t mean they Feel things. I will be the 1st to admit, I was very naïve to that. I thought it you are paralyzed you didn’t feel things where you are paralyzed. Boy, did I learn. In my case, and apparently a lot of others, I can feel the inside of my body and if you poke me in the arm I can tell you exactly where you did it or wiggling my toes. I can point out which one you are wiggling. But I can’t feel the outside of my body or move it. So I can tell when a bladder infection is brewing, where pain is, stomach aches, hunger, etc. and lack of sexual release has been proven to cause pain and cause other medical problems. And I would never, ever, ever want someone in any situation to be forced to do anything sexual to anyone in any way. That is completely wrong. There’s always people commplaining about anything and everything, and usually they are naïve and don’t know anything about what they are complaining about. For instance, I will use stem cell just as a for the one conversation example. Someone is very very against stem cell. It’s wrong to take it from a fetus, it’s wrong for whatever other reason. But the moment, the second, either they or someone they love gets paralyzed or any other medical reason that stem cell would help… They are thoughts about stem cell immediately changes. And that’s the truth. Lack of education and people sticking their nose into every single thing they don’t understand irritates me
obviously you didn’t read as much as you claim. There was talk about every way. People could come up with ways to help someone who is disabled with this problem. From toys to people, not just someone doing it for them, even though that’s the easiest fix. Nor was it stated that only the nurse should do this. It was a question about that. And I never said anyone should, such as nurse, have to perform favors on the disabled. Since I am the paralyzed one, not the creator of the thread, I’m very glad to hear that you find this all creepy. Thanks
we don’t? We don’t have that ability? HMMM… Well now I am just lost. I have a spinal cord injury, I get erections no problem. I guess it’s my imagination, since you don’t get them with a spinal cord injury. Well, no worries, I guess. I can’t feel things either? Then why would this even be a problem, I guess it’s not. I wonder how people with spinal cord injuries that have babies can do that without being able to get erections or anything. Everything I’ve learned since being paralyzed, I must be wrong about. Damn, what a waste of 7 years
The man clearly said, “…because many men with spinal cord injury…” I add emphasis to the word that your response seems to ignore.
I sincerely apologize about my initial response to this. I guess I’m not the one thing attention. I missed the word many as it was pointed out and for that I apologize.
To the questions… No problem whatsoever on erection part. In fact, it reminds me of going through puberty again when it pops up whenever it wwants. LOL. And no idea about the orgasm, which is kind of what this has been about. And there are different ways you can ejaculate. In fact, some people do it from someone rubbing their ears. Or imagining it. I’ve tried all these that people suggested except actual stimulation from another person, minus the ear thing. LOL
The ear thing was from a film, I believe The Diving Bell and the Butterfly (about a man with Locked-In Syndrome).
By the way, there is a forum member who goes by the handle blinkie with Locked-In Syndrome who has written about his experience after a massive stroke. He is lucky in that he was married, and has had excellent support from his wife and children. He had a “Ask the guy with Locked-In Syndrome” thread, and even though he communicates via eye tracking software, he and his wife still have a love life. So he’s not having to deal with sexual frustration as you are.
I have no idea what you’re on about. If it doesn’t apply to you then that’s fine, why even react? You’ve made it abundantly clear you understand my point, so clearly I don’t mean you.
I addressed someone specifically upthread who came back with the whole nurse thing, not you. What I am addressing is a tone found in this thread on various occasions, where people expressed incredulity that there was nobody who was obliged to provide them with sexual satisfaction. Go back and read what I actually wrote, and read what came before. It’s a reaction to people expressing themselves quite specifically. That is not what you are expressing, I get that.
If you think (as others apparently do) that this is related in any way to prudishness or the idea that nobody should ever try to provide sexual services to people of various disabilities then I think you have reading comprehension problems. I certainly do not support organisations that try to prevent clients from having sex and I in no way endorse the view that people with disabilities of any kind don’t have sexual feelings. I keep stating that I support organisations that help provide sexual services to their clients, explicitly. I worked for such an organisation.
Here is what is creepy:
- If someone can’t masturbate to donate sperm, a nurse should do it for them.
- If someone really wants sex, someone else should be obliged to help them out.
- Everyone has sex, it’s normal, therefore it’s a right everyone is entitled to.
You don’t think that? Ok, no problem then. Other people expressed those ideas, and that’s creepy and as previously explained, a dangerous social attitude. Again, if you have trouble understanding why these attitudes are dangerous start a new thread.
If I remind someone that sex is not an entitlement, that does not pertain to a discussion of toys, or an organisation’s willingness to contact prostitutes for clients. It pertains to nothing other than statements that imply what I object to.
Answers as already provided in this thread:
Apparently yes.
Has been stated as yes.
Munkypoop is unclear if possible because he’s never been able to try it out. But everything else seems functional.
Sorry to butt in here, and I’m quite aware that no two spinal injuries are quite the same and can easily leave people with differing levels of sexual feeling and/or ability, but it IS possible for a man to have no feeling in his genitalia yet still have an erection and orgasm without “therapeutic aids”. Typically, it occurs in quadreplegics where the sensory nerves from the lower body to the brain are damaged/destroyed but the spinal nerves involved in lower body reflexes are still intact. John Callahan in his autobiography He Won’t Get Far On Foot relates some instances of this in his own experience but he was a quad who still retained some minimal use of his arms such that he was still able to manipulate his own penis. Apparently, Munkypoop99 is not so fortunate. Presumably a quad such as Mr. Callahan may not be able to directly feel his own orgasm but would still note something due to the endorphins released and, well, if he says it feels good who am I to doubt him?
So, it is possible that Munkypoop99 can still feel his dick but can’t do anything about it, or maybe can’t feel his dick but would still get some sort of enjoyment out of it being stimulated. Or maybe he doesn’t know for sure, as he’s never had his dick stimulated since his accident and would like to find out. It’s his call how much he wants to enlighten us about the matter.
>cough< In prior threads, shortly after he arrived here, Ambivalid made it pretty clear his bits are all still fully operational, to the consternation of some readers who felt it was TMI. But his situation is quite different from yours, I mean, he’s a guy who complains his local gym doesn’t have adequate weight machines for him so he does pull ups with his wheel chair strapped to his ass for the extra load involved. You two guys are in different worlds even if you both use wheelchairs, which I think is why he’s asking questions. He’s trying to grasp your situation. He may not be able-bodied but he’s not disabled anywhere near the degree you are.
It’s my understanding that sperm can be extracted a number of ways, including jabbing a needle into a testicle and sucking some out (presumably with at least local anesthesia! - you guys can now unclench your knees and stop whimpering) or inserting a particular device into the man’s rectum that delivers electrical stimulation that results in ejaculation (this is also used to obtain sperm from farm animals for artificial insemination). Neither of those two methods require the male critter to be conscious, and indeed both sound like something really unpleasant to experience while awake and aware. I can’t imagine doing either for pleasure. They’re strictly utilitarian means of obtaining sperm.
I’m not getting where anyone is promoting this idea. Some people have asked if masturbating a paralyzed patient could come under the heading of “medical need” and if so would it be permitted for a caretaker or nurse to provide that as a part of medical care but I don’t see anyone saying “do this or lose your job”. That’s not forcing anything, that’s asking a question. Likewise it’s been asked if applying a sex toy would fall under “medical need” in some cases but, again, no one is proposing making that a regular thing or obligating anyone to do that.
More accurately, (nearly) everyone wants sex and has a right to pursue opportunities to have sex. Some people feel that that should include purchasing it as a commercial transaction - well, that’s hardly a new idea and it’s even legal in some countries. IF prostitution is legal then it’s no more coercion for someone in a wheelchair to pay for sex than it is coercion if you go to a restaurant when you’re hungry and pay someone else to prepare and serve you a meal. In both cases a person is being paid to provide a service, the major difference being the legality of the transaction in some locations. Other people would like there to be organizations where volunteers do this for disabled people and apparently these exist in some places, but again, these are volunteers, no one is being coerced.
Well, OK, your opinion is yours and you’re entitled to it but I have failed to find anything “creepy” in this thread… but then, I’m a depraved pervert who has sex with a disabled man fairly regularly (sorry, Munkypoop99, I hope some day you can find a special someone to spend the rest of your life with but this happily married woman is already taken).
On the contrary, it’s been mentioned up-thread that our societal mores actively obstruct this. Witness this horror story, in which a caregiver is fired and blacklisted for even talking about it:
This is reminsicent of WhyNot’s remark that professional masseuses/masseurs are thoroughly indoctrinated to turn and run at the first hint of anything erotic. They are not supposed to allow a client to even ask about a “happy ending”; if the client does, the massage professional is supposed to immediately terminate the session and show the client the door. WhyNot mentions that she has previously made known her attitude toward prostitution. (IIRC, she thinks it should be legal and considered socially acceptable — WhyNot, amirite?) (I note also that WhyNot recently mentioned, in a nearby thread, that she is a Certified Massage Therapist.) After some prodding from me, she finally gave a cogent explanation why she would find it wrong to do sex-relief work for a client: Because it could give rise to an emotional dependence in the client, which is bad news in a caregiver/client relationship. But she also said she would not set up her client with any willing paid professional (possibly other than an established sex therapist) because — prostitution, you know. Sounds like she is basically, mainly, covering her ass here.
Sorry. Not meaning to pick on you directly, WhyNot. I am meaning to argue that it’s a best a crapshoot if someone like Munkeypoop99 will be lucky enough to be assigned caregivers who will, uh, help him out (even if that simply means they will set him up with someone else who will), or if they get caregivers who refuse to do even that. It shouldn’t be a crapshoot, but it is a crapshoot.
Analagous, but even bigger-stakes, example: I’ve read various times that there actually are many doctors who are willing to perform active euthanasia on their patients who are in grave agony, by overdosing them on morphine or something like that, if they feel they can get away with it. Why not be willing to set up a quadriplegic client with a massage therapist who is comfortable with doing happy endings? Like the doctors who do under-the-table euthanasia, there are plenty of them. (Ask me how I know all this: Surprise, I’m a CMT too. So I read a lot on massage in general while I was in massage school, and has a bit of “networking” going on where things like this got discussed, and saw the kinds of ads I saw on Craigslist — yes, even from graduates of my massage school!) Legalities aside, it’s only a matter of one’s personal attitude whether that’s “legitimate” or not.
Actually, the OP (who seems to have not returned to this thread for a while) did ask: “Do nurses or doctors ever have to masturbate disabled or paralyzed people” (emphasis added). As a GQ question, it was quickly and definitively answered, without any debate: No.
This thread should actually have been quickly moved to IMHO (or maybe even GD) promptly after that. The discussion in this thread for the last 6 pages is clearly IMHO or GD territory.
Okay, granted that it’s certainly not required of any caregiver. Okay, gracer? But why so much active overt obstructionism? It’s already been noted that nurses and caregivers do much squickier work: Cleaning bedpans and butts, intubations, not to mention assisting in fun jobs like abortions.
Come to think of it, in fact: Let’s compare with assisting in abortions. Definitely squicky, I suppose. Should nurses be required to participate? Many nurses have objected, often on religious grounds. It’s been much debated. The verdict generally seems to be: Yes, if you’re going to be a nurse, at least if you’re going to be a gynecological nurse, it’s part of the job.
So, as Broomstick pointed out, the question is on the table now: Is it a medical need for paralyzed patients (males in particular) to have the occasional orgasm and ejaculation to “clean the pipes”? If so, then we’re definitely neck-deep in Great Debate territory: Should it then be a required task for a nurse or caregiver, if “orgasm therapy” is indicated for the patient?
And, if so, is it such a specialized procedure that a specifically trained “sex therapist” specialist must be called in to do the job? It this that much more elaborate and complicated a procedure than most of the other tasks a caregiver does? Or it the objection simply that it’s all that squicky? And if so, what’s so squicky about it? I mean, of course the caregiver would wear a latex glove, right? Is there some occupational hazard here? Are dick radioactive or something? Are caregivers at risk of being turned to stone at the sight of one?
There seems to be, also, an implicit line of thinking that this can’t possibly be acceptable because, you know, the patient might actually get some pleasure out of it. No way! This is a MEDICAL procedure! Any procedure that the patient might actually like can’t possibly be permissible! Or, if really necessary, we simply MUST make it as dry and mechanical as possible. This, it seems, is what leads to all that discussion about the mechanical alternatives (the less pleasant for the patient, the better): The mechanical milking mochine; the electro-ass-prod; the needle in the nads :eek: Heaven forbid we should do it in the most natural, simple, and straightforward way by, you know, just pulling on a latex glove and rubbing the patient’s dick. Why so much resistance to doing just that anyway?
(Oh, and sorry I couldn’t go back and re-edit that last post or two to fix typos and add some clarifications, as I’m starting to have some serious trouble again with this board’s dysfunctional authentication server. I just posted a rant in ATMB about that.)
YES! Absolutely. I’m sorry if I gave the impression it was anything else. Yes yes yes, it’s completely 100% covering my ass, following the law, acting in accordance with the rules and ethics of my profession as outlined in the Nursing Practice Act and promoting a safe (physically, legally) environment for my client! Completely.
I agree, it shouldn’t be a crapshoot if any patient has a licensed professional caregiver who is or isn’t staying legal and safe! If we don’t like the laws, we should change them, but if you hire a nurse, you should have a nurse who is a *professional *nurse, one who you can have a pretty strong faith will follow the guidelines of their profession, remain law abiding and won’t bring unverified criminals into your home!
No, I think you’re wrong here. The verdict has repeatedly recently been, for nurses, pharmacists and doctors alike, that they **cannot **be compelled to perform or participate in performing abortions if it goes against their moral judgement. I think that’s wrong, but that’s another thread. It does not support your argument here, however, as abortion is still (barely) legal. So you’re talking about requiring nurses to perform legal acts when you’re talking about abortion, and illegal ones when you’re talking about hiring LMTs for “happy endings” or prostitutes for sex work.
I’m a little frustrated that I keep giving the factual answer here and it keeps getting glossed over: if a [del]disabled [/del] person needs sexual release and cannot find a friend or lover to do it, the appropriate - legally and professionally - person to hire for that is a sex surrogate. That is the answer, the only answer, under our current licensing and prostitution laws. The rest of this thread is just "yes, but"ing.
I don’t think you fully read my post either.