Do overt religious displays bias you for or against a business?

Great Debates
241

[QUOTE=Voyager]
Take a look at Gentleman’s Agreement some time. That isn’t science fiction. It’s not prevalent today since the Holocaust has made it embarrassing. If you doubt that, you should know that my great aunt had to lie about her religion to get a job - in New York City.

I don’t have poll numbers, but I do know that Father Coughlin was very popular, and that Woody Allen was making jokes about restricted clubs in the early '60s.
[/QUOTE]
Please don’t get me wrong…I understand that minorities have been discriminated against. But I think that it’s bad logic to assume that identification with a majority automatically means that a person is discriminating against a minority.

242

Those signs (Christian business, etc.) could just be a business ploy, but if it was truly intended it would mean to me that the person is not serving you or selling you items on his own, but as if God Himself has given him that job (for God has, but that’s another issue). People who follow this principal of Christianity don’t work for a boss or owner, they work for Jesus at their boss, they serve Christ at that work that God has provided as if Jesus Himself has hired you, the earthly boss or owner is secondary, it is the one that God placed over you but God is supreme, it does not subornenate your responsibility to Father God.

This is also how I view the saying one nation under God, God is supreme, the higher and only true authority.

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Modern Christianity is known for ( often ) being hostile towards all non Christians.
[/QUOTE]

If you understood scriptures you would know that it doesn’t teach the above, and the actions (hostility) is not being done in the name of Jesus, but a false Christ - or Antichrist if you prefer.

Scriptures again don’t point to this for Christians either, you are talking about false teachings of the Antichrist. Christians are called to be in this world but not of this world. There is a exception, Jesus Himself will take over the world during the second coming - and there is no stopping that.

It would really help if you understood what you hate so much. You hate the destruction brought about by the teachings of the Antichrists (as do I) and are deceived into thinking these are the teachings of Jesus. This exact warning is in scriptures along with the true teachings of Jesus, ones to rejoice over.

243

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
If you understood scriptures you would know that it doesn’t teach the above, and the actions (hostility) is not being done in the name of Jesus, but a false Christ - or Antichrist if you prefer.
[/QUOTE]
However, this argument does not actually address the claims of Der Trihs.
While it is true that he has only unkind words regarding Jesus, his more direct point is that Jesus is irrelevant to the discussion because Christians have gone out and created their own world view without regard to the words of Jesus. In his perspective, Christians do not really follow Jesus, so showing how they “could not” be acting in a particular way because those actions do not follow the words of Jesus is pretty much the equivalent of declaring that slavery “could not” be tolerated in the U.S., since the Declaration fo Independence declares that “all men are created equal.” Regardless of any pretty words, the reality is different.

244

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
While it is true that he has only unkind words regarding Jesus, his more direct point is that Jesus is irrelevant to the discussion because Christians have gone out and created their own world view without regard to the words of Jesus.
[/quote]

Some have created their own religions, piggybacking on Jesus, but ignoring what He said, and putting words into Jesus’ mouth. They have in effect created false religions in the process but use the same name as the one religion following the true Jesus. The false Christianities I hate as much as DT, I’d say more then DT, as DT just thinks they will lead to earthly oppression, and I see it leading people into eternal seperation from God (or pretty close to that).

But Jesus is certainally relevant, and His church exists today to bring God’s love into the world and dispel the darkness. I don’t ever recall DT ever complaining about true teachings of Jesus, and I don’t think he even knows what they are.

245

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
However, this argument does not actually address the claims of Der Trihs.
While it is true that he has only unkind words regarding Jesus, his more direct point is that Jesus is irrelevant to the discussion because Christians have gone out and created their own world view without regard to the words of Jesus. In his perspective, Christians do not really follow Jesus, so showing how they “could not” be acting in a particular way because those actions do not follow the words of Jesus is pretty much the equivalent of declaring that slavery “could not” be tolerated in the U.S., since the Declaration fo Independence declares that “all men are created equal.” Regardless of any pretty words, the reality is different.
[/QUOTE]
That’s true. To a non-Christian, it doesn’t matter if a person is following the spirit of Christianity or not, if a wrong is committed in the name of God, then it is a reflection on ALL Christianity. How is a non-Christian supposed to differentiate it?

246

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Some have created their own religions, piggybacking on Jesus, but ignoring what He said, and putting words into Jesus’ mouth. They have in effect created false religions in the process but use the same name as the one religion following the true Jesus. The false Christianities I hate as much as DT, I’d say more then DT, as DT just thinks they will lead to earthly oppression, and I see it leading people into eternal seperation from God (or pretty close to that).
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, this is nothing more than the No True Christian argument. There are over two billion people in the world who identify themselves and who are identified by others as Christians. Trying to make a claim that all those people are not “really” Christian–rather than recognizing that the word has a meaning and you do not get to redefine it to give yourself a warm comfortable feeling–does not make it so. Der Trihs uses the word as it is used throughout the world to identify all those people who believe they are following Jesus. I am afraid that you simply do not have the authority to redefine the word for your convenience. And if you do wish to use it in some overly restricted manner, then you have no right to use your narrow definition to reply to Der Trihs who was clearly not limiting himself to your idiolect.

Another discussion of the fallacy.

247

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
if a wrong is committed in the name of God, then it is a reflection on ALL Christianity.
[/QUOTE]

By this logic all muslims are terrorists.

The book that defines the teaching of Jesus.

248

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Sorry, this is nothing more than the No True Christian argument.
[/QUOTE]

Because there is a deceptive enemy the no true scottsman argument fails.

As I pointed out I to hate the teachings of those who claim to be Christians but are not followers of the teachings of Jesus. This does not mean that Jesus was a evil man at DT claims (or I though he claimed), it means he too is deceived.

249

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
By this logic all muslims are terrorists.
[/QUOTE]
No, by that logic, all Muslim terrorists reflect badly on Islam.

250

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Because there is a deceptive enemy the no true scottsman argument fails.

As I pointed out I to hate the teachings of those who claim to be Christians but are not followers of the teachings of Jesus. This does not mean that Jesus was a evil man at DT claims (or I though he claimed), it means he too is deceived.
[/QUOTE]
It is not an abuse of belief: you are abusing language. The word “christian” has a meaning that you are trying to define more narrowly than is actually in use througout the world by all speakers. You do not have that authority. (And since there is no place in Scripture where Jesus said “Call yourself Christians,” you have no Scriptural authority for your idiosyncratic usage.)

You are engaged in the No True Scotsman argument and since deception is against the commandment to not bear false witness, if you persist in your position, you are leaguing yourself with the deceiver. :smiley:

251

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Please don’t get me wrong…I understand that minorities have been discriminated against. But I think that it’s bad logic to assume that identification with a majority automatically means that a person is discriminating against a minority.
[/QUOTE]
Automatically ? No. But when the majority in question has a history of doing so, and when there really isn’t much reason to flaunt one’s membership in that majority besides claiming to be superior or to intimidate, it’s the safer conclusion. That, or that they are trying to suck in people gullible enough to think that people who label themselves Christian are more honest/virtuous.

To use a similar example, if I went around with a shirt that said “I’m White And You’re Not”, while that shirt technically isn’t a statement of bigotry or that I discriminate against non-whites, everyone would reasonably presume that that’s what it means.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Those signs (Christian business, etc.) could just be a business ploy, but if it was truly intended it would mean to me that the person is not serving you or selling you items on his own, but as if God Himself has given him that job (for God has, but that’s another issue). People who follow this principal of Christianity don’t work for a boss or owner, they work for Jesus at their boss, they serve Christ at that work that God has provided as if Jesus Himself has hired you, the earthly boss or owner is secondary, it is the one that God placed over you but God is supreme, it does not subornenate your responsibility to Father God.
[/QUOTE]
If that’s supposed to be reassuring, it’s not, at least not to someone who doesn’t believe in God. From my viewpoint, that’s either someone who’s working for his preacher instead of his boss or customers, or someone who’s working for his own delusions. In either case, not the sort of person I want to be anywhere near, much less do business with.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
This is also how I view the saying one nation under God, God is supreme, the higher and only true authority.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t recall electing God, and despite what some people might wish this isn’t a theocracy. Even if he existed, I see no reason to consider God as having legitimate authority over me. And from a practical perspective I’d take even Bush over God as a leader; disgusting and stupid as he is, not even Bush has killed all the firstborn of Iraq or killed off most of the population of the planet in a flood, or demanded that he be worshipped upon pain of death and eternal torment. God makes Bush look like a Great Statesman, which is truly pathetic.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
If you understood scriptures you would know that it doesn’t teach the above, and the actions (hostility) is not being done in the name of Jesus, but a false Christ - or Antichrist if you prefer.
[/QUOTE]
Since there is no “true Christ”, there is no “anti-Christ”. There’s no reason to consider one variety of Christianity more valid than any other.

And as tomndebb points out, for the purposes of this thread it’s all irrelevant. People are not following what Jesus said, however good or bad that was. They are following the religion that has grown up in his name. The question isn’t “how would a True Christian tm run a business”, it’s “what does it mean when someone displays religious symbols or slogans on or at his business ?” People considering themselves Christian have done everything from scam people to massacre them to enslave them in the name of Christ; it’s very, very obvious that following Christianity does not make you a good person.

There’s no Antichrist to teach anything. And Christians can’t agree on what’s unChristian any more than they can agree on what’s “truly Christian” anyway.

What you seem unable or unwilling to grasp is that I don’t beleive in God or that Jesus is anything other than a dead man, so I really, truly do not consider any variant of Christianty to be any more true than another. There are certainly variants I consider to be better or worse than each other, but not more true. I simply don’t consider “Christian” to be anything more than a self applied label, one which means little or nothing more than the fact that you’ve given yourself the label “Christian”.

252

[QUOTE=Raza]
There are several businesses locally that prominently display “American owned” on their signs. One is a 200-store grocery chain, the other a well-known donut shop franchise. Even though I’m as white and American as can be, these signs very much turn me away.
[/QUOTE]

Why? Does “Locally owned and operated” offend you as well? Americans preferring to do business with a company subject to US law is hardly a downside. Every try suing a China based company that has no actual operations here in the US? Hell it can be a challenge to deal with problems involving companies in other states let alone other countries. Nationalism IMHO is hardly on the same scale as racism or religious discrimination when it comes to our day to day shopping and service needs.

253

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Please don’t get me wrong…I understand that minorities have been discriminated against. But I think that it’s bad logic to assume that identification with a majority automatically means that a person is discriminating against a minority.
[/QUOTE]

Automatically no. Often, maybe. Today, I’m not sure if it is often - 400 years ago, I am sure. 70 years ago, often works also.

254

[QUOTE=drachillix]
Why? Does “Locally owned and operated” offend you as well? Americans preferring to do business with a company subject to US law is hardly a downside. Every try suing a China based company that has no actual operations here in the US? Hell it can be a challenge to deal with problems involving companies in other states let alone other countries. Nationalism IMHO is hardly on the same scale as racism or religious discrimination when it comes to our day to day shopping and service needs.
[/QUOTE]

Locally owned is hardly the same thing as American owned. Do you think there is a serious question about whether donuts shops are owned by some international cartel? American owned is clearly distinguished from Chinese owned or Mexican owned, or, maybe, Canadian owned. It sounds to me that the owner is saying he isn’t an immigrant.

255

Just as a datapoint, I went through the plumbing section of my yellow pages. Many businesses had the Better Business Bureau symbol, some had membership in contractors organizations, and none had a fish. I suspect whether or not Christian plumbers in my town think Christianity equals morality, they know it is a divisive symbol, and in my town, where there are lots of non-Christians, unlikely to be good for business.

256

Der Trihs Your above post #251 (top of this page), really fills me with real hope. As you concluded:

OK you don’t believe in God and Jesus is dead. That’s impossible for me to change, but impossibly easy for God to change. What appears like the easiest way is to have Jesus visit you, this way you will know He lives and also, going on scriptures and revelations, you will know that He is God (and therefore God exists)

I do agree with you that people who claim to be Christians but have invented their own religion, not following the teachings of Jesus is a great threat.

257

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
What appears like the easiest way is to have Jesus visit you, this way you will know He lives and also, going on scriptures and revelations, you will know that He is God (and therefore God exists)
[/QUOTE]
But, until then, I will work under the assumption that he’s just a dead guy.

~ 2000 years without a sighting, odds are in my favor.

258

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
OK you don’t believe in God and Jesus is dead. That’s impossible for me to change, but impossibly easy for God to change. What appears like the easiest way is to have Jesus visit you, this way you will know He lives and also, going on scriptures and revelations, you will know that He is God (and therefore God exists)
[/quote]
It’s impossible for him to change my opinion due to the inconvenience of him not existing, and Jesus can’t do it either being extremely dead. And I’d still despise him even if he was anything other than a lie and delusion.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I do agree with you that people who claim to be Christians but have invented their own religion, not following the teachings of Jesus is a great threat.
[/QUOTE]
Once again, it’s all the same. It’s ALL invented.

259

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
It’s impossible for him to change my opinion due to the inconvenience of him not existing, and Jesus can’t do it either being extremely dead. And I’d still despise him even if he was anything other than a lie and delusion.

Once again, it’s all the same. It’s ALL invented.
[/QUOTE]

Well, if you get hit on the head or something and think that Jesus does visit you, remember to ask him if P=NP or for a cure for AIDS, okay? All the people who claim to chat with Jesus regularly seem reluctant to.

<SNL> It is August, 2007 and Jesus is still dead. </SNL>

260

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Der Trihs Your above post #251 (top of this page), really fills me with real hope. As you concluded:

OK you don’t believe in God and Jesus is dead. That’s impossible for me to change, but impossibly easy for God to change. What appears like the easiest way is to have Jesus visit you, this way you will know He lives and also, going on scriptures and revelations, you will know that He is God (and therefore God exists)

I do agree with you that people who claim to be Christians but have invented their own religion, not following the teachings of Jesus is a great threat.
[/QUOTE]

How do you know that you are not one of the people who claim to be Christian but are not following Jesus’s teachings? It is a matter of how YOU translate what some one told you was Jesus teachings and what some other person said Jesus said or taught. Because some one doesn’t agree with your translation doesn’t make you anymore right than they!

Monavis