Do racist attitudes keep Asian American men from being accepted as fully erotic men?

In My Humble Opinion
21

No, its evidence that those that feed the pop culture machine - mainly Hollywood and the major record labels - do not elevate Asian men to romantic status. It doesn’t mean that there’s not a demand for it, or even that it would be rejected by consumers if that tactic was tried.

What pablum pop culture feeds to the masses isn’t necessarily reflective of what they want or what they will accept. And American pop culture is often homoginized, sanitized and mass produced for the common denominator, so no one wants to take risks. The only reason Asian men aren’t considered viable as romantic leads is that no one has really tried finding a hot talented Asian guy, casting him as a romantic hero, and marketed the hell out of the movie.

When it comes to popular culture, we can only lust after celebrities that are put in front of us to see. If Hollywood thinks we don’t want Asian men as sex symbols, they won’t put them in front of us, so no Asian men become sex symbols, and that’s used as justification for their assumption that Americans don’t want Asian sex symbols.

I agree you cannot prove that Asian men have low sexual status by saying, “Well, I find some Asian men attractive.” However, I didn’t say that. My point was that when dealing with popular culture, you are inherently dealing with the attitudes and prejudices that those who control popular media hold. Because studios/record labels haven’t got the cajones to really push for a breakout Asian romantic lead, don’t assume that it wouldn’t be readily accepted and embraced by the public.

There was a time when a black man wasn’t considered a viable romantic Hollywood lead. It didn’t mean it wouldn’t end up being profitable or commonplace, or that we wouldn’t have black movie and music stars that are considered sex symbols today.

Given the right promotion and bankroll, almost anything can become popular, or at least accepted by the mainstream. In fact, that can be the catalyst for changing attitudes towards the subject at hand. Show Asian men as strong and sexy, and women will think they’re strong and sexy.

22

Wow, all that in response to the first line of my post, and nothing at all in response to the body of it! Is there some reason why you have chosen to ignore my main point, that Asian women in American media are severely underrepresented, and almost never portrayed as a sexy leading ladies? Do you believe that this is evidence that Asian women are unpopular and stereotyped as asexual beings?

Oh, anecdotally speaking, I knew several white American girls in college who had pin-ups of Japanese pop idol Gackt decorating their dorm room walls. He has something of a cult following in the US, despite (AFAIK) never having been marketed towards American audiences and (IMHO) being unremarkable in terms of musical talent.

23

There is something about an asian guy or one who is mixed ( Ameriasian) that makes me weak in the knees.
WE use to have a family of 6 boys who’s father was from Asia ( can’t remember exactly.Maylasia, I think.) mom was standard white bread mom. Dad was average looking too.

Those boys were hot, hot, hot. My brain would seize up every time any one of them walked into the store. If there were more than one of them I was a goobering pile of jello.

24

Question that may have no answer:

How many Asian men/women are even TRYING to be in the mainstream American media? Maybe they aren’t being kept down, but the opposite - maybe they could just care less. I mean if droves of Asians are being turned away from Hollywood’s door in favor of less talented caucasian actors and performers, then I could accept that maybe there’s a problem. But somehow I don’t think that’s the case.

25

I described in my post why most American women will not choose a native-born East Asian, or one that bears the mark of that culture.

As for pop culture, I’m surprised that there’s a debate here at all. The East Asian (Korean, Japanese, Chinese) population of the US is really just too small to cater to. You are also not going to find very many Scandinavian men or Madagascar-ian men “shown” (as one poster said) as sex symbols. The bling ain’t there.

In the US, you will tend to have sex symbols that fit the big demographic groups: White, Black, Hispanic.

In Japan, naturally, Japanese men are sold as sex symbols. Hollywood has undeniable moving-making power, so for that reason W/B/H men will be sold to a certain extent as sex symbols. A Korean show was recently popular here, so a Korean dude (and his gear, baby!) were sold as well–whether as sex symbol or not, I don’t know (never watched it).

Then you’re done.

26

I think the Asian popluation speaks for itself. They must be doing something right.

27

Because it’s quiet obviously false. You’ve got Lucy Liu, Tia Carrere, Zhang Ziyi and any number of lesser known women in White Male-Asian Female relationships in the movies (Shu Qui, Tamlyn Tomita, . To say that they are hardly ever depicted as “sexy leading ladies” is simply false.

I’ll grant that you don’t have as many pinup posters of Lucy Liu as of Pamela Anderson, but that’s only one aspect of the whole media dynamic. Examining the media as a whole indicates that Asian men get tremendously short shrift in comparison to whites, blacks or Asian females. While Asians are generally underrepresented, this is much more true of Asian men than of Asian women – ESPECIALLY when it comes to romantic roles.

You want evidence? Just look at the WM/AF relationships in the movies. In Come See the Paradise, Dennis Quaid and Tamlyn Tomita kiss only minutes after they’ve met. In The Lost Empire, Bai Ling and Thomas Gibson try to kiss on their first meeting, but they’re interrupted. Then there’s Mr. Baseball, in which Tom Selleck goes out with a Japanese woman on their first date, and she starts talking bluntly about sex. In The Transporter, Shu Qi aggressively jumps Jason Statham’s bones at the first opportunity. These examples are so common that I’m shocked that you fail to notice them. In the history of Western movies, Asian women are frequently depicted as lusting after white men, and white men are consistently successful in seducing Asian women.

In contrast, Asian men in Hollywood are hardly ever shown as positive romantic objects for women of any race. Jackie Chan gets frequent mention, but he invariably plays the heroic buffoon rather than the romantic lead. Jet Li plays “Romeo” in Romeo Must Die, but he never gets to kiss his Juliet. He’s married to Carla Gugino in The One, but he never kisses her. Bruce Lee’s character in Enter the Dragon and Chow Yun-Fat’s characters in The Replacement Killers and The Corruptor are all decidedly unromantic. If a James Bond movie ever came out where 007 didn’t get to sleep with any of the women, audiences would feel cheated, but it would be surprising to see an Asian male hero bed his leading lady. When Asian men are shown as sexual, it’s usually in a villainous context, as the threatening corruptors of white women: Shanghai Express, Showdown in Little Tokyo, Rising Sun, etc. You can deny the double standard all you want, but it’s existence is blatantly obvious.

28

You have a point in that Hollywood doesn’t elevate Asian men to romantic status, which frustrates a great many Asian men. But WHY don’t they do that? Why don’t they try that tactic? If the female audience members lusted after Chow Yun Fat the way they drool over Tom Cruise, then why wouldn’t Hollywood give these Asian actors the same treatment? The disparity is so severe that I think it’s horribly naive to think that this is merely because Hollywood hasn’t thought to try this approach.

Heck, let’s set Hollywood aside for the moment. Why aren’t there any Asian men who adorn your typical teenage or twentysomething heartthrob magazines? If women truly lusted after Asian men they way they swoon over whites and blacks, then why aren’t the readers asking for these Asian hotties to get cover treatment? Or would you seriously think that the publishers would turn down an opportunity to attract more of the swooning young female contingent?

This problem isn’t just limited to Hollywood. It pervades movies, TV, magazines, romantic novel covers, pinup posters – media in general. It also pervades everyday relationships. Walk through any major university, and I guarantee that you’ll see far more WM-AF couples than AM-WFs. Heck, I’ve heard far too many Asian males complain about being ignored by non-Asian women to think that this is all just their imagination.

I recall an article by one Asian man who placed a couple of singles ads on the Internet. The ads were virtually identical, except that one identified him as a Caucasian, and the other identified him as Asian. The Caucasian ad received several dozen responses, some of them sexually explicit. The Asian ad didn’t receive a single reply. Frankly, this doesn’t surprise me in the least.

We can try to convince ourselves that there’s no real disparity between the demand for Asian and non-Asian men, but frankly, I think that’s self-delusion.

29

I think that analysis is flawed, for several reasons.

First, while the East Asian contingent is relatively small, it’s still substantial. Moreover, it doesn’t stop Asian women from achieving status as romantic leads and objects of sexual desire, so I think its relative size is a non-issue.

Second, while there may not be that many Scandinavian men depicted as sex symbols, there are a huge number of Caucasians who are. Even if we only consider Europeans, their presence is still palpable. It would be foolish to compare Asians to Scandinavians, when the distinctions between Scandinavians and Caucasians are relatively small.

30

I’ve never even heard of Shu Qui or Tamlyn Tomita. Zhang Ziyi is only familiar (and not even that familiar) to the American public because of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Her character did have a romantic subplot, but she was hardly a “sexy leading lady”. She was playing a renegade martial arts expert. Sounds a lot like what you wrote in your first post about Asian men – they’re either martial artists, or no one can remember their names. Granted, there’s still Tia “That chick from Wayne’s World” Carrere (who is actually mixed European/Asian, so if you’re counting her for the women’s side you should include Keanu Reeves on the men’s), and Lucy Liu, who I already mentioned, but in terms of big celebrity status I don’t see that Asian women are faring better than Asian men.

*I’m not denying that they’re underepresented; that much is obvious. What I doubt is your explanation for why this is the case. You clearly have a lot more faith in both the American media’s ability to correctly judge the public’s tastes and their desire to satisfy those tastes than I do.

31

Your points are reasonable.

Still, I think American pop culture is just so very geared to very specific categories, that anything that won’t sell! sell! sell! is not even given a chance. True, lots of good stuff from around the world would sell if it were given a chance, but this is America, dammit! and we sell our own stuff first.

I think you’ll find that Asian Americans are a non-critical-mass demographic. Hey, they’re close enough to white people anyway, so just forget about them.

The popmeisters are dealing with an algorithm that takes race, ethnicity, and nationality all into consideration. A white American is preferable to a white Brit is preferable to a white European. A black American is preferable to a black European is preferable to a black African, etc. You gotta have both whites and blacks, or else your racists, but you can do without Asians, as they aren’t oppressed!

In any event, there are thousands of whites ‘n’ blacks in line, and they have dibs before any of them foreign types.

I’m not saying this is good or just–it ain’t. But it’s an algorithm that the Holywood simpletons can handle, and it’s in force.

32

The idea that Asian men aren’t as masculine as men of other races appears to be supported by the scientific literature, at least in terms of average testosterone levels. Also, their average total testicular weight is only about one-half that of Caucasian or black African men.

http://www.humanevolution.net/a/asianoriental.html

33

See, you don’t understand the way the media business works. They don’t like to tinker with a successful forumla unless they feel confident that this will lead to increased sales. Boosting coverage of “Asian hotties” would only increase sales if there were some significant portion of the “swooning young female contingent” that only liked Asian hotties. That is, there would need to be girls currently refusing to buy their magazines due solely to the lack of Asian hotties. Those that like Asian hotties and black or white hotties are already buying the magazines.

This is even true of readers who might actually find Asian men even more attractive than men of other races, as long as they are at least attracted enough to men of other races to buy the magazines as they are. I personally know at least one young woman who likes Asian men much more than black or white men, but she also happens to like Orlando Bloom enough to buy magazines that contain pictures of him. I’m sure she’d be happier with these purchases if they had lots of pictures of Asian hotties too…but the magazine publishers have no reason to care about this as long as they’re getting her money anyway.

34

I wish I knew why Hollywood didn’t just try really pushing an Asian man as a romantic lead. My earlier hypothesis is that no major studio has the balls to be the first one out of the gate. Stick with what’s safe, follow the pack, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

My personal arguement with your example of Chow Yun Fat vs. Tom Cruise is Chow Yun Fat, while extremely talented, just isn’t that attractive (to me! to me! personal opinion here! that’s all! Of course, Cruise never did it for me either, so there ya go). Kinda like an Asian Gene Hackman. For heartthrob, sex symbol status, you need someone that’s pretty goddamned attractive, race be damned. Go young, go with supermodel good looks, add a script where the character can prove his masculinity without resorting to the stereotypical martial arts standby, make him a sex machine on screen and witty to boot, and I guarantee American women will eat it up with sushi on the side. That will break the Asian male barrier to heartthrob status.

More than likely because (from what I’ve seen browsing the covers of Tiger Beat, et. al…shameful, I know) they seem to concentrate on pop stars, TV stars and the occasional PG-13 safe movie star (Orlando Bloom). Americans ship their pop stars to Asia, not vice versa. TV is even more conservative, racially speaking, than Hollywood. Again, it’s a lack of options to choose from.

I’d really have to read the article before I could comment on his experience. I’d also have to read the personal ads, know where they were placed, what he said he was looking for in a relationship, etc. etc. And how was he identifying himself in the ads as one race or another - photos? Description? If photos, then how do you determine that the caucasian photo wasn’t better looking overall than the Asian photo? If description - well, honestly, do you really want to bolster your arguement with a secondhand account of the desires of skanky women sending sexually explicit emails to a guy whose photo they haven’t even seen? As a woman, I’m pretty disappointed to be lumped in with that nonsense.
And isn’t that an example of “one person’s experience” serving as justification for a position in a discussion? Ok, ok, never mind. Ridiculous road to go down, especially in IMHO.
Anyhoo, JThunder, I don’t wanna argue with you. I just get the impression that you feel that Asian men, as a whole, don’t get a fair shake from caucasian women or American culture. Maybe that’s from personal experience, I dunno. I just want to defend a large percentage of American women who think hot is hot, no matter what the race. If Hollywood doesn’t show hot Asian men, it isn’t because we wouldn’t buy into it. Its because no one else is doing it first, and they don’t want to spend money on anything less than a sure-fire, proven thing.
Now, if you really want to get down to brass tacks, let’s take on the lookism in popular culture - if you aren’t hot, you aren’t shit. That screws over all average looking people equally, regardless of race.

35

Hmm, we had Brandon Lee, but he tragically died. Same problem with his dad, Bruce. Keanu Reeves would fit the bill, but he’s not readily identified as Asian. Yao Ming has the height and size factor, but not the native-born English speaking skills. The Rock (Dwayne Johnson) has height, size, and speaking skills, but again, not identified by the public as Asian. Similarly, nobody thinks of Tiger Woods as Asian, either.

Jackie Chan actually had a turn as a romantic lead in The Tuxedo, with a Caucasian hottie love interest in Jennifer Love Hewitt, no less. But the movie made lots of jokes about how unromantic he was, so maybe this was a comedic, not serious role. Still, as a producer and budding Hollywood power player, Jackie is in the unique position to write himself into romantic roles with the likes of Claire Forlani (The Medallion).

But maybe he’s too old to be considered a heartthrob. Yep, Asian men are hosed then.

36

Because Lord knows, as a woman, I look for nothing more in a man than big, bulbous, dangling, weighty testicles. Mmmm-mmm.

37

Not in that particular role; however, she is an Asian actress that I’ve frequently heard men declare their lust for. Moreover, even if you disregard Ziyi, there are still the numerous other instances that I pointed out of Asian female leads being coupled (often frequently and with great abandon) with non-Asian men. Not all of these are big names, but their presence is pervasive, and there is a dearth of comparable counterparts among Asian male actors.

Again, nope. Zhang Ziyi may have been a martial artist, but the others weren’t. Moreover, while not all of these were well-known names, they are at least notable examples – whereas there are scarcely any comparable examples among Asian male actors.

Heck, in Sixteen Candles, Molly Ringwald was horrified at being pursued by Gedde Watanabe’s geeky Chinese character. When was the last time you saw that type of dynamic between a white male and an Asian female? In Anna and the King, there was a dint of romance between Jodie Foster’s character and Chow Yun-Fat’s, but Hollywood didn’t even grant them a peck on the lips. So Hollywood may occasionally let Asian men play the “romantic” lead, but only if this role is stripped of its romanticism.

I’ll grant that, but still, Tia Carrere is quite obviously of Asian descent, whereas it’s not so obvious that Keanu is. Oh, Keanu’s eyes certainly give a hint of his Asian genetics, but I would never consider his Asianness to be as obvious as Tia’s. Moreover, even if you disregard both of them, there is still tremendous disparity among the remaining roles of Asian males and females.

And I’ve already provided numerous examples which show that they do. Heck, the fact that Lucy Liu is recognized at all as a sex symbol, with no comparable male counterparts, demonstrates this.

38

Porn as empowerment… Gotta love it. I mean, we all see how wonderfully it works for heavy, balding, hairy guys, a la Ron Jeremy.

39

And you have throngs of young women writing letters to such magazines, thereby providing feedback about who they’d truly like to see. In my day, they asked to see pictures of Kirk Cameron or Michael J. Fox. Nowadays, they doubtlessly want write-ups about Orlando Bloom or Brad Pitt. The media has plenty of ways of knowing what the public wants, even if these means are not perfect.

Besides, the magazines don’t need to revamp their formulas. Heck, they just need to feature the occasional Asian male hottie now and then, maybe even in a non-exclusive cover. Magazines tweak their formats all the time, without knowing for sure if it’ll work, so I simply don’t buy the excuse that you mentioned.

And if you don’t believe that, just do a Google search on terms like “WM/AF” and “AM/WF”. You’ll find dozens of articles and blogs, talking about how Asian men find themselves unmarketable among non-Asians. In contrast, I have yet to see ANY articles which talk about Asian women having a difficult time landing a white guy, or white men who keep getting spurned by Asian women.

Again, I’m not claiming that this evidence is foolproof; after all, we are dealing with a sociological phenomenon, and such things do not lend themselves to laboratory experiments. However, the bulk of the evidence shows that there is far less demand for Asian men than for Asian women, or for people (male or female) of other races. If you’re going to claim that Asian men are just as popular as whites or blacks (or even comparatively popular), then I fail to see any evidence to support that claim.

40

Exactly the point I raised earlier. Keanu may have some Asian genetics in him, but he’s not readily identified as such. Heck, when I first saw him in Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure, I never considered that he might be part-Asian. When I saw him in Speed, I wondered if he might have some Asian blood in him, but I didn’t consider this to be obvious.

In contrast, I don’t think anyone would doubt that Tia Carrere is of Asian descent. Heck, I know some people who were surprised to learn that she isn’t full-blooded Asian.