PCarolinus, I interpret Nawth Chucka’s differently than you do. It is not about food. The manager was creating a hostile workplace by commenting repeatedly on a subordinate’s body, despite being asked to stop.
The manager persisted despite being ordered to stop by HR.
IMO it is reality that most HRs are mostly interested in protecting the company, the management, and the employee in that order.
The fact they inverted the standard priorities this time to protect the employee over the manager implies that maybe, just maybe, the whole story is rather larger than our naysayers blithely minimize it to be.
It’s the only independent evidence the rest of us have in this case. It seems odd to dismiss it.
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That poster has been excoriated multiple times by men and women alike for her position, to the point of becoming an inside joke, so it’s hardly representative of the norm.
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That wasn’t her claim at all. Her claim was that men who ignore personal boundaries in small cases (i.e. ‘‘I’m going to shake your hand when you just told me that makes you uncomfortable’’) are more likely to ignore them in larger cases. This seems reasonable to me. The poster has a ton of wackadoo ideas but this one seems to have been largely blown out of proportion.
After my abuse, I got a lot of comments that it was probably something I misinterpreted. At the time I thought I might be misinterpreting it because I was really desperate to believe that. The bottom line is I don’t trust other people’s judgment about women’s experiences since they fail to understand that repeatedly kissing and groping the breasts and genitals of a 12 year old child is not a misunderstanding. If people can’t be trusted with a such a basic and obvious example I really don’t know how I can trust them to decide that any given woman’s experience of sexual harrassment in the workplace is not real. Because of the obvious bias, apathy and outright collusion of outsiders, and the extent to which I’ve experienced imbecilic levels of victim-blaming and minimizing in an attempt to preserve the status quo, I am much more likely to take a woman’s claim seriously than to dismiss it.
That doesn’t mean all claims are valid or equally serious, but rather we have an impetus as a culture toward not believing, not taking seriously, and shaming the victim for bothering to say anything. This is ‘‘rape culture’’ as I see it, it is a not a meaningless term at all to me but a label that explains my experiences and the experiences of women whose stories I encounter daily. More importantly, it describes a set of social circumstances and norms that can be changed through concerted efforts.
I hate leaving men out of these conversations, but as men to do not typically discuss their experiences of sexual assault or harassment, it’s really hard to pretend I have a good knowledge base about what the experience is like for men. It’s not acceptable no matter who it’s happening to.
Not sure you have grounds to sue, there not being any food involved.
I’ll just go to HR and demand they force the world to revolve around me. According to the majority here, that’s my right.
What average / normal person does not realize that “repeatedly kissing and groping the breasts and genitals of a 12 year old child” is wrong?
Are you comparing NC’s “horrible” lunch time experience with the above? I certainly hope not, that would be more than a little disingenuous.
Re men’s experience I’ve been hit on many times, ( in the past) by men and women.
As I’m not gay men were told no thanks, or fuck off depending on how aggressive they might be. Women sometimes yes sometimes no, depended on my level of attraction to them.
I don’t recall ever losing any sleep about any of it.
It’s only considered harassment if it’s unwanted, otherwise it’s a successful romantic overture.
( note I said considered, not is)
Just curious: was the perpetrator an adult, or another adolescent, not that the latter would make it right in any way?
No, I still haven’t read that post or the drama it spawned. I’m not stepping into that.
More people will minimize and excuse this than you would ever believe.
You don’t have to take my word for it. The internet, and indeed this board, contains plenty of examples of clearly wrong behavior being denied, discounted, and minimized, or taking the victim to task for speaking up about it. Why should I trust these people to make a judgment about whether or not women misinterpret sexual harassment?
Adult. My step/adoptive father.
What he did is clearly wrong if you don’t know me, and if you have no stake in the relationship with the perpetrator. The minute anyone has any skin in the game they will toss you under the bus without a second thought. I can count on one hand the number of people who supported me. That is rape culture. We created a name for it because it happens to so many people.
I’m sure some claims are stupid and nutty. I’ve seen people argue that men shouldn’t even say ‘‘hi’’ to women in public and that is bonkers to me. I don’t advocate a lifetime of looking over your shoulder expecting danger and betrayal at every turn. During the times that women seem oversensitive it’s very likely they are contextualizing it within other experiences they have had. I think the problem with a lot of this kind of behavior is that those who have no direct experience with it would prefer to see it in a vacuum, as an isolated incident, but it’s significant, and distressing, precisely because it’s not a single shitty experience but a cumulative lifetime collection of being used for the sexual gratification of others. The brain is primed and wired to respond in a specific way once all those context cues are there.
Yeah. That’s the most basic level of harassment there is. You’ve been asked to stop a social interaction directed towards someone that is making them feel uncomfortable. There is no actual reason that you need to be doing this action.
It can get a little more shaky with things you’re supposed to “already know” will make someone uncomfortable. Exactly where that line is is hard to draw. Some people, in my opinion, put the line too far up.
But if someone asks you to stop a social interaction that makes them uncomfortable, and you willfully continue, that is textbook harassment. If there’s any sexual connotation, like commenting on the attractiveness of someone’s body, that’s sexual harassment. If someone asks you to stop, you had better stop.
No means no. It’s not just for rape.
Actually, by definition, I think it’s not harassment unless it’s unwanted. My standard definition of harassment is ‘‘behavior persists after someone asks you to stop.’’ But some stuff that would be considered workplace harassment is pretty obvious despite not fitting that definition. You don’t put your hand a coworker’s ass and consider it okay unless she asks you to stop. There are certain behaviors where it’s best to assume consent has not been supplied unless specifically directed otherwise.
I take issue with the “it’s best to assume consent has not been supplied unless specifically directed otherwise”.
Our cultures, and the people within them, romanticize romance. That is, it’s considered romantic when a man kisses a woman when they both want it – on the flipside, a man is frequently ridiculed for being too wimpy or unassertive if he were to ask “hey, um, Mary, would it be okay if I kiss you?”.
I have spoken to so many women who utter praise when a guy in whom they’re interested comes on strong … those same women will say they were harassed by a different guy doing the same thing.
As a result, you have a situation where:
- Men are expected to make the first move
- If a woman likes a man, the man is ridiculed for asking permission before making the first move.
- If a woman likes a man, the man is praised for spontaneously kissing (for example) her.
- If a woman does not like a man, the man is considered to be creepy/harassing/abusing the woman if he makes a move.
This applies to forward physical actions, such as kissing. But it also applies to forward verbal actions, such as asking someone out. You’re stuck trying to correctly guess whether she’s interested or not – and if you guess wrong, your advance can be construed as sexual harassment.
This is why I do not agree with the sentiment that “if an advance is unwanted, it is harassment”.
That’s a great idea. Leaving the board that is.
Sue me, I like comedy.
So first of all, I was referring to a workplace setting. I’m hard pressed to think of a situation, outside throwaway romance novels, where an ass-grab at work would be a reasonable overture to make.
Second of all, I would consider an ass-grab, absent clear indicators of interest (i.e. someone’s tongue down your throat), in any context, sexual assault. Is it the worst form of sexual assault ever? No, but men who do this are called creeps for good reason. And FWIW I’ve never heard a single one of my female friends mention such a scenario with any attitude other than disgust.
Kissing? Fine. Assuming the person appears interested. I realize that’s a subjective assessment.
I see sex/consent whatever happening along this continuum, it’s a process. It starts with flirting. Well received? Okay, yes, next step. Touching hand - well received? Okay, yes, next step. Kissing? Etc. etc.
Too many men, I think, confuse ‘‘she’s not saying no’’ with ‘‘well-received.’’ These men aren’t looking for an enthusiastic partner, they’re looking for what they can get away with. It is in this space, in my personal opinion, that sexual assault is most likely to occur.
We could have a great conversation about what non-verbal consent looks like and how we can get to a point where women feel comfortable enough to speak up about shit they don’t like, and all these social factors and gender stereotypes that contribute to the problem, for sure. But none of those things make it less wrong to grab someone’s ass apropos of nothing.
I’m sorry, but this is crap.
If I asked you to stop posting on this message board because it makes me feel uncomfortable, would you stop? And if you don’t, is that textbook harassment?
I should add that I don’t generally like making categoricals about specific behaviors, particularly in dating settings. People need to use their best judgment about what behavior is appropriate and when, but too few people are bothering to use any sort of judgment at all.
I’ve heard many men declare this as unassailable fact, but I have never in my life heard a woman make this claim. It’s when they don’t take a fucking hint that it rises to the level of harassment. Signs of disinterest include, and are not limited to, one-word, perfunctory responses, lack of eye contact, moving away from the person expressing interest, stiffness in neck and shoulders. These should not be ignored, and if you’re seriously thinking about playing grab-ass they are honking red flags. In a perfect world in which women aren’t socialized to try to make everyone happy all the time, the woman would say, ‘‘Thanks, I’m not interested,’’ but that’s not happening right now as often as it should. That’s partly because the threat of retaliation is real and partly because we are trained to always be nice and agreeable. This isn’t great. I’m not thrilled about it. It contributes to the problem.
It doesn’t, however, absolve the harasser of responsibility. You don’t get to conclude, "Well she listened to me ramble for five minutes, I can definitely grab her ass now.‘’
I think it can get complicated when the individual harasser in question is bad at reading social cues. If you are one of those people it’s probably best to err on the side of caution.
I think one of the reasons this is so self-evident to me is that I am very much always in touch with someone’s comfort level in any given situation. It’s in their posture, tone of voice, eye contact or lack thereof, etc. etc. I notice it not only in romantic situations but at work and around town and with every person I meet, ever. I realize not everyone has this ability, but this is a case where, if you want to avoid being labeled as one of those guys, you’ve gotta train your weaknesses. (you = general you)
I really don’t think it’s a lot to ask in the interest of facilitating a culture of mutual respect.
And FWIW, these rules you’ve laid out that women supposedly have are bizarre and foreign to me. But you are talking to a girl who dragged her third-grade boyfriend behind the bleachers and kissed him before he could make the first move. In fact, my romantic life is riddled with examples of me being impatient with men for not making a move, and doing it for them, usually in the form of direct conversation. I am not a patient person in love or any other context, and I never wanted to waste a second pining after someone who had no interest in me.
If BigT followed you around the board replying with the things that made you feel uncomfortable, yes.
Why are there conditions? I’m using his definition - “But if someone asks you to stop a social interaction that makes them uncomfortable, and you willfully continue, that is textbook harassment”
If I ask him to stop posting on this message board (a social interaction) because it makes me feel uncomfortable, and he willfully continues, is that textbook harassment?
Pretty sure I’m reading it in the spirit he intended it.
I’m not a pedant, sorry. Good faith. All in good faith.
My personal view of harassment is that it has to be directed at someone, not just exist in someone’s general vicinity. I find it unlikely BigT disagrees.
Well, perhaps he shouldn’t make blanket statements like “But if someone asks you to stop a social interaction that makes them uncomfortable, and you willfully continue, that is textbook harassment”
And that is why I called his statement crap.
Your account was temporarily suspended while this post was discussed. We presume that you’re being sarcastic and have no serious plans to sue the board. However, we have a low tolerance for threats of any kind, even if veiled or made in jest. Any further such remarks along the lines above, whether now or in the future, will result in revocation of your posting privileges without further notice.
You forgot ‘‘Bolding Mine.’’
d&r