I think saying, that, “everyone is a sinner” is just an old-fashioned way of saying, “we’re only human.”
Does that make sense?
“Sinners” is a term for those who are imperfect. But who the hell is perfect? Since we are all imperfect, why bother point it out to people? It’s the same as accusing people of being alive, but a lot more self-rightous in tone.
Since the overwhelming majority of Christians – or even fundamentalist Christians – have no problem with dancing, card playing or moderate drinking, that’s a pretty severe caricature which you’re painting.
JT I think Thea Logica was being sarcastic.
I don’t believe in sin.
Ergo, someone calling me a sinner isn’t offensive.
Furthermore, in Ireland, “sinners” is also sometimes used in a lighthearted way just to mean “people”.
And my response would be the same: “Speak for yourself!”
Polycarp
The defendant pleads guilty, your Honor, and the prosecution recommends a term in Purgatory, working the 6am shift.
While you sound really nice.:rolleyes:
I don’t much mind being called a sinner. I know I’m imperfect, but hey, I’m working on it.
The only thing that bothers me is when someone trots out the “love the sinner, hate the sin” thing. In my experience, that usually means that the speaker is about to indulge in some serious intolerance.
Being a sinner has nothing to do with being imperfect, Imho.
I’ts about going against God’s commands (or your forefathers, to the absolute degree, having sinned).
Since I don’t believe in Adam, Eve or the Judeo-Mulsimo-Christian God, I don’t believe in sin. So I don’t find it very offensive.
I do find it annoying that they have a tendancy to spit while they shout it in my face.
Why is it offensive if Christians think religions other than Christianity are false? I mean, it’s sort of expected that they would, isn’t it? Most people, generally, think that people who disagree with them are wrong.
Thank you, Polycarp, for clarifying this distinction. As a humanist, the label of “sinner” has always sort of bounced off me, as if it had no meaning. The concept simply has no place in my ethical universe, nor can I apply the term to anyone else. Was Hitler a sinner? Is Osama bin Laden a sinner? I can attribute “unspeakable evil” to them, but the word “sinner” has no meaning for me, and I can’t apply it to them.
And to say that we are **all **sinners - this concept is so foreign to me that it is literally meaningless. One might as well say that we are all saints.
Would it be better if I asked you if you’ve ever lied, and if so, just to plainly call you a liar? Is that judging, as, by answering yes, you’ve admitted to me you’re a liar? And a sinner is a transgressor of the law, so have you transgressed the law? Criminal is an offensive term as well, but those guilty of breaking the law fit the bill.
It has been my experience that those who talk about the intolerance of others are pretty intolerant of those who disagree with them. Kind of ironic if you think about it.
Truly and honestly, I spent the first 27 years of my life as a fundamentalist, in the Church of Christ, and the people I knew there simply didn’t use ‘sinner’ to describe non-Christians. They called them ‘non-Christians,’ for the most part, or when they were getting nasty, ‘pagans’ or ‘those outside of Christ.’
In fact, the vast majority of people I heard use ‘sinner’ were referring to themselves, as in, ‘I am a sinner and God has shown mercy to me.’
Now, I’m not saying that fundamentalists don’t do and say a vast number of stupid and wrong things, but my experience was that my fellow fundies just didn’t use ‘sinner’ in this way.
I did, however, hear it from time to time from acquaintances who weren’t Christians themselves but knew that I was a fundamentalist. ‘I’m sure you think I’m an awful sinner, but…’ It always sounded kind of strange to me, since I was used to using sinner to refer to myself, not to someone else. But then, people who knew I was a fundamentalist were often making assumptions about my thoughts and reactions that weren’t accurate.
My experience is limited to the Church of Christ, and other groups might be different, but I can’t remember ever hearing ‘sinner’ used to specifically describe nonChristians. It would have sounded sort of nonsensical, since we were used to thinking of ourselves as sinners.
That may be true, but it doesn’t make it right. We tend to like to cover up mistakes, or soften the blow. It’s not a drunkard, it’s an alcoholic, it’s not a death, it’s passing on, it’s not a gossip, it a busy body, it’s not sin, it’s human nature, it’s not abuse, it’s domestic disturbance. Sin is sin, and until someone knows the value of sin, they will never be thankful for the cross. Most people who talk about hell and fire preaching, or are against it, probably don’t understand that it’s not the fear of hell that made me become Christian, it was the sudden awareness of how bad my sin was, and that God would forgive such an evil person as myself. The only time sinner is used in most churches, it’s ‘the sinners prayer’ where someone askes God to forgive them of their sin, while they have no idea what sin is. You can not repent if you don’t know what you’re repenting of.
YOU LOBSANG, YOU ARE A SINNER, AS WELL AS EVERYONE WHO AGREES WITH YOUR EVIL DOCTRINES.
haha, what offends you so much? the word or the delivery? I hope people dont just go up to you in public and tell you what i did…cuz even as a christian i would be quite pissed off. Reminds me of Peter’s strict CAtholic Father on FAmily Guy. do people like that really exist?
Sincerely, if your were offended by my reply, im sorry.
But i greatly hope you werent, or else you gotta take a “chill pill”
Why should “sinner” be offensive? Everyone is (including me) so what is the big deal?
I’m a sinner, he’s a sinner, she’s a sinner, wouldn’t you like to be a sinner too?
If it offends you maybe it’s because it reminds you of something you have done hmmm…?
I thinkthis is a prime example of how people can find the word “sinner” offensive, specifically this line:
Svt4Him, I’m not trying to pick on you, and I wasn’t aware you’d posted in this thread when I read that, but it seemed appropriate to this debate. You see, I read this as saying, in effect, “Sinners are bad people who are different from us, Christian good people.” To me, the term “sinner” is offensive unless the person using it makes it clear that the term includes them, as well. Having spent a couple of years indulging in debates over homosexuality, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the argument, “But homosexuals are sinners!” To which my response is, “So are you; so am I; so was Mother Teresa, Martin Luther, and almost everyone else who walked the face of the earth.” (OK, there was one exception, but He was only half-human! ;)) I’ve seen “sinner” used as a perjorative too many times.
You know, I think I’m pretty good on 9 out of 10 of the original 10 Commandments (I have coveted a few times), and I’m not sure how much worse I am at the two Christ gave us than anyone else, but I have sinned as surely as a fellow in jail for rape and murder, committed while robbing a church. I suspect the concept of degree of sin is a concept created by men, not God. That we are sinners, however, to me is less important than that we are forgiven. If we focus on the sin, to me, we are focussing on the dead body of a martyred Saviour rather than the beautifully empty cross and tomb.
Respectfully,
CJ
Siege- that may be true, but when I see people use the term sinner as in your a sinner, I’m a sinner, so it’s ok, they are trying to gloss over the grossness of sin. Sin is not against me, it’s against God, and God has pronounced a death sentence on it. Therefore people need to know that it not something to be taken lightly, and it is offensive towards God. So I think a good question would be do non-Christians know how offensive sin is? As for Christians, if they are living in habitual sin, did they say a sinners prayer, or truly repent? That’s also why I don’t like the line “Love the sinner, hate the sin.”, nor do I like “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.” Our idea of “wonderful” and the world’s may be a little different. Take a non-Christian through the pages of the Book of Acts and show him the terrifying scene of boulders breaking the bones of Stephen. Then smile and whisper, “Wonderful…” Listen together to the sound of a cat-o’-nine-tails as it rips the flesh off the back of the apostle Paul. Follow together the word “suffering” through the Epistles, and see if you can get the world to whisper, “Wonderful!”
After such a ride down Honesty Road, they may think the pleasures of sin are a little more attractive than the call to “suffer affliction with the people of God.” John MacArthur said, “We need to adjust our presentation of the gospel. We cannot dismiss the fact that God hates sin and punishes sinners with eternal torment. How can we begin a gospel presentation by telling people on their way to hell that God has a wonderful plan for their lives?”
Who in the world is going to listen if we are so blatantly honest about the Christian life? Perhaps not as many as are attracted by the talk of a wonderful plan. However, the answer to our dilemma is to make the issue one of righteousness, rather than happiness. This is what Jesus did. He used the Ten Commandments to show non-Christian the righteous standard of God (Luke 10:25,26; 18:18– 0). Once the world sees the perfect standard by which they will be judged, they will begin to fear God, and through the fear of the Lord, men depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6). They will begin to hunger and thirst after the righteousness that is in Jesus Christ alone.
If you study the New Testament you will see that God’s love is almost always given in direct correlation to the cross: herein is love, for God so loved, God commended His love, etc. (John 3:16; Romans 5:5,6,8; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 2:4,5; 5:2,25; 1 John 3:16; 4:10; and Revelation 1:5, among others.) The cross is the focal point of God’s love for the world. How can we point to the cross without making reference to sin? How can we refer to sin without the Law (Romans 7:7)?
The biblical way to express God’s love to a sinner is to show him how great his sin is (using the Law—see Romans 7:13; Galatians 3:24), and then give him the incredible grace of God in Christ. This was the key to reaching so many on the Day of Pentecost. They were “devout” Jews who knew the Law and its holy demands, and therefore readily accepted the mercy of God in Christ to escape its fearful wrath. When you use the Law to show the world their true state, get ready for sinners to thank you. For the first time in their lives, they will see the Christian message as an expression of love and concern for their eternal welfare, rather than of merely proselytizing for a better lifestyle while on this earth.