It doesn’t bother me in the least to be called a sinner. In fact, I plan on sinning a lot over the next few weekends. 
Svt4Him, I was told repeatedly I did not deserve to live, that my existence was an offense. With few or no messages to the contrary in my life, I believe it, which led to a history of suicide attempts, including one 11 years ago which came extremely close to succeeding. I know the grossness of sin. I also know what terrible effect continually being told one is a sinner has on a person’s soul. The world told me I was unworthy of life. Left to the world alone, I would have been dead many years ago. There have been times in my life when I have come close to considering myself to sinful to be welcome in church, to gross to be welcome in church. I know some people who have walked away from Christianity because they thought they were too gross, too sinful to be welcome in a room full of people who proclaimed themselves saints and the rest of the world sinners. Does it never occur to you to think that sinners may be acutely aware of their sins? Are you not aware that a person can be so battered and tormented by her sins that she considers herself for human company? That she might consider herself less than a dog to be shut outside and kept away from the company of civilized people?
Some sinners cannot bang at the door of a church because they believe with a surety that passes for knowledge that the door will not be opened and they will not be welcome. Whether you intend it or not, that is the impression your words give.
Eleven years ago this very night, believing myself unfit for this world, too sinful to live, I became near catatonic from depression. A good friend later told me he was terrified because he looked in my eyes and saw no soul there. Eleven years ago Saturday, Someone told me I was not too sinful to live. To the best of my knowledge, what ended that awful nightmare of fear and pain was an intervention, a miracle given to me by God, Himself. I am not worthy so much as to gather up the crumbs under His table, but He is the same Lord whose property is always to have mercy.
I remain a sinner. I will do so for as long as I am a human being. Therefore, for me to refuse to associate with sinners is about as hypocritical as you can get. For me to accuse others, whether they have specks or whole forests in their eyes unless I acknowledge that the log in my eyes has blinded me, I am wrong. I go to church with some truly awsome and remarkable Christians. They have no qualms about admitting they are sinners, and one of them, when I mentioned your remark tonight, also wondered how you’d account for these sinners who are beating down the doors of the church. We are forgiven, not perfected, although we are required to try to perfect ourselves.
Convinced of my own sin, I nearly died. Convinced of God’s mercy, I lived. Oh yes, in case you were wondering, I was very much a Christian before that awful night eleven years ago. That is why I find it objectionable when Christians are quick to label others as “sinners.”
CJ
SVT,
Let me assure you also, you words don’t make me feel that I would be welcomed to your church with love.
However you intend them, your words convey a strong sense of disapproval of anyone who isn’t already inside those doors you wonder why I am not banging on.
And I am a Christian already.
God help those outside those door who are not.
But then, I believe He will help them.
Tris
Svt4Him, please do not see this as an attack but as advice on evangelism.
To most of us, Christian or not, the evangelical Chjristian focus on sin-and-repentance sounds very much like the six-year-old who’s just been given a toy plastic hammer, and who therefore goes around the house pounding on anything that remotely resembles a nail, from the front door knob to the long-suffering puppy’s head. Siege’s testimony ought to make it clear what the effect of focus on sin is on some folks; you could also check out the testimony of some of our gay members on their “welcome” at their former home churches.
There are so many aspects of new life in Christ that are worth speaking of and which are completely neglected by evangelicals speaking to non-believers. To note three:
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I’m afraid of death. Few people are able to look forward with equanimity to their inevitable complete terminatioon of existence. (Those who can, please don’t hijack with an argument – I said “few” because I’m generalizing, and I am aware that there are some. Christ’s promise of new and abundant life that is everlasting, and His proving this out in the Resurrection, is an answer they are looking for.
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I’m alone and lonely, and nobody cares. The Church should be a community where the person who feels this way is welcomed, accepted, and loved – and who seeks out the person who feels this way, and draws him or her into itself.
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I’m worthless. I have nothing worth having. The answer here is that everyone has gfts and talents, and the church exists as a way of identifying and building up those gifts and talents which a person does have.
Now check out what God says the “sin of Sodom” is, in Ezekiel 16:49. Then take a look at Ezekiel 34 about the sin of the shepherds. It is the evangelical churchgoers, not the gay people, who are guilty of the sin of Sodom, if the word of God is any guide. And it is the televangelists and their ilk who will be cast down as false shepherds.
Then I think you’re missing my point. The law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. If I came up to you and said that I just paid a $20 000 fine on your behalf, that would be offensive or silly to you. You don’t think you’ve done anything to deserve it, and I’m implying you have. Would you be happy that I’ve done this? Now if I came and said there was a blind school convention and you were speeding through the area that clearly said to go 30 KM, and you nearly hit a child. Because of it you now have a $20 000 fine. But don’t worry, I’ve paid the fine, then you are thankful. To say you have no right to live is unbiblical, and is not using the law. A sinner isn’t someone who has no right to live, it’s someone who’s broken the law.
Grace to the humble, law to the proud. I think that’s why I posted the sign that we had on our church ‘Never too good to stay out, never too bad not to come in.’ There are people who really desire to repent, and there are those who do not.
I think it’s based on your perception of sin preaching. But again, law to the proud, grace to the humble. It would be foolish to think all were proud, and equally foolish to think all were humble, so I don’t think the first thing I’d ever say was ‘Your a sinner not worthy to live.’ Actually, I’d never say that, but I hope you know what I mean.
I’m sorry for that. But to show sin for what it’s worth, and to say that God has provided a way for you to be forgiven, is different than saying you are too sinful to live.
I disagree with the first part. If you steal a car, you’re a thief. But after you ‘serve your time’ and pay back your debt, you can apply for a pardon. Once received (although it’s a bit tricky for some things) you can apply for most jobs, and not have to mention it again. If you understand the pardon given when Jesus said “It is finished.”, you wouldn’t refer to yourself as a sinner. As for refusal to associate, I agree 100%.
No, that is a misquote. It says to first take the speck out of your eye, not to ackknowledge it. But I don’t understand the point about the sinners beating down the door. If so, please read John 3. It clearly says why people reject Jesus, and it’s an issue of sin.
Convince someone of sin is only half the message. I think I’ve covered that. What do you think about people who never repent of their sin because we want to preach love? As I’ve quoted before, I believe the greatest expression of God’s love was the cross, and you can’t understand the cross without understanding the consequence of the law. If I gave you a cure to gromenson’s disease and said I sold my house to get it, and I’m giving it to you as a free gift, you may take it, and thank me, but you’re again going to think I’m silly for selling my house to give it to you, and you probably won’t value this. Now if I said there’s a bad disease going around, and a lot of people are getting it. There are ten clear symptoms people get, and I see you have them. The disease is terminal, and a quick test will show if you have it. After you fail the test, and are convinced you have the disease, I then say there’s a cure, and I have it. I sold my house to get it, and I’m giving it to you as a free gift, you will certainly appreciate it, and you will use it. You seem to get hung up at the part where you are told you have a sickness (sin), and I agree that’s not the full story. The law shows us where we are, it has no power to change us. It’s a mirror of our soul, and it’s grace that changes us. But grace is a cure that is preached when people don’t know they’re sick, therefore it’s taken lightly, and used as a reason to trample the blood of Christ agiain.
Is it a sin to post to a thread without having read it?
Or perhaps you could briefly explain why you are so offended when other people call themselves sinners. Just so I can get an idea of how I sound to normal people.
Regards,
Idiot Fucking Shodan
First off, I don’t mind if people question my belief. I don’t ever see that as an attack. I believe I should know what and why I believe something, and if I don’t, I either need to change it, or find out why. I don’t like character attacks, as they take the focus off the issue and put it on the person.
That said, the repentance preaching is as old as the Bible, and it’s what both Jesus and John the Baptist preached. I believe it was Abraham Lincon who said, “I know that the Lord is always on the side of right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I—and this nation—should be on the Lord’s side.”
Jesus said, “Unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3). God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). And, as I said earlier, all heaven rejoices when on sinner comes to repentance.
Many don’t understand that the salvation of a soul is not a resolution to change a way of life, but “repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” The modern concept of success in evangelism is to relate how many people were “saved” (that is, how many prayed the “sinner’s prayer”). This produces a “no decisions, no success” mentality. This shouldn’t be, because Christians who seek decisions in evangelism become discouraged after a time of witnessing if “no one came to the Lord.” The Bible tells us that as we sow the good seed of the gospel, one sows and another reaps. If you faithfully sow the seed, someone will reap. If you reap, it is because someone has sown in the past, but it is God who causes the seed to grow. If His hand is not on the person you are leading in a prayer of committal, if there is not God-given repentance, then you will end up with a stillbirth on your hands, and that is nothing to rejoice about. We should measure our success by how faithfully we sowed the seed. In that way, we will avoid becoming discouraged.
Both “those who use it” and “non-Christians” seem far too broad for the question ever to be answered in even the most general way. “Sinner” too means vastly different things to different people. One of the most surprising and thought-provoking definitions I’ve seen came from a religious person, and it was “sin is a refusal to grow.”
I’m an agnostic, and if someone tossed the word “sinner” at me, I would have to consider what prompted them to use it. If they meant “you’ve done something my narrow mind doesn’t approve of” then I’d shrug it off. If I had willfully caused harm to someone or something, then I’d have to consider the matter more carefully.