Do these female characters' reaction to great stress seem sexist?

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

I am working on a story (big surprise!) and am a bit worried about the actions of two of the supporting characters. I’d like some input if y’all don’t mind.

Here’s the scoop. It’s a fantasy story, first of all. I’ll call the characters in question Susan and Greer. For purposes of this discussion, consider that Susan is about 20, childless, and unmarried; Greer is married and in her mid-forties, and has a 25-year-old son, a 6-year-old daughter, and a suckling infant. Susan and the son are recently engaged. Along with Greer’s husband, Susan’s mother, and a few family friends, they’re on a picnic as the relevant portion of the story begins. They’re in a city the size of New York that is invaded in a sneak attack. The battle goes poorly for the defenders from the very beginning, and half a day into it it’s decided to evacuate as many civilians as possible. Susan and Greer are in a group of about 20. Also in this group are the fourteen-year-old son of the local superhero and his thirteen-year-old girlfriend.

The evacuation goes no better than the overall battle. During the course of it, Susan’s fiancé, Greer’s husband, and the six-year-old are all killed. Ultimately they’re captured by enemy soldiers;one of whom attempts to rape Susan, prompting her mother to leap to her defense; this leads, unsurprisingly, to the mother being killed. But Susan is not raped, as just then the local superhero arrives to dispatch the bad guys. The superhero then goes off to finish repelling the invasion. But the bad news is not over, for the baby has been injured and dies soon afterwards.

Susan and Greer both have bad reactions to all of this. Susan becomes catatonic; she stops talking entirely and will only move if forced; at one point, after the rescue, the group is set upon by a group of enemy soldiers running away from the far distant hero, and she not only does not react but, when knocked into the mud, simply lies prone until her friends help her up. Greer goes batshit. After her baby dies she tries to kill the super-hero’s son, as she blames their suffering on the hero’s inattention to his duty because of his son.

Greer and Susan are the only two persons in the evac group to have such extreme reactions. Among the other survivors is an 50something man who watches his brother die; two friends of the family(one male, one female) who are about her age, but who have no family in the group; a young woman who works for Susan’s mother; and the aforementioned teenagers.

Does having just Greer and Susan react thus seem sexist here?

[DigitalC]

It might seem sexist if they were the only women in the group, otherwise it just makes them unsympathetic.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@DigitalC

It might seem sexist if they were the only women in the group, otherwise it just makes them unsympathetic.

That last clause is unclear. Are you saying the scenario I have described makes them unsympathetic?

[Quartz]

The reactions seem rather extreme.

[muldoonthief]

To summarize:

Day starts as a picnic in the park. Literally.

Susan - fiance killed, mother killed, nearly raped.

Greer - adult son killed, infant child killed, husband killed.

If that’s accurate, then IMHO, neither one could have a reaction that’s too extreme. I can buy catatonia or insane rage.

[Freudian_Slit]

@muldoonthief

To summarize:

Day starts as a picnic in the park. Literally.

Susan - fiance killed, mother killed, nearly raped.

Greer - adult son killed, infant child killed, husband killed.

If that’s accurate, then IMHO, neither one could have a reaction that’s too extreme. I can buy catatonia or insane rage.

Yeah. In most movies people seem to bounce back from stuff like that, occasionally making quips about how pissed they are or looking brooding. I always thought that in real life, there would be a lot more rocking back and forth looking traumatized, but that wouldn’t be as much fun.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@muldoonthief

To summarize:

Day starts as a picnic in the park. Literally.

Susan - fiance killed, mother killed, nearly raped.

Greer - adult son killed, infant child killed, husband killed.

If that’s accurate, then IMHO, neither one could have a reaction that’s too extreme. I can buy catatonia or insane rage.

Greer’s six-year-old daughter dies too. I’m pretty much a shit to my characters.

The reason I was wondering is that I was writing a bit in which Susan is talking to the teenage girlfriend, and it occurred to me, “Hey–how can she even talk after the day they’ve had?” All the characters are having a shitty time of it, but Susan and Greer get the worst of it (of the people who survive, that is). But then it occurred to me that I was having two female characters pretty much lose it, while the men stayed sane, and I feared I was working from a sexist assumption.

[Words_on_the_Interweb]

It doesn’t come across as sexist, but it does come across as unrealistic; the superhero arrives in the nick of time to prevent the rape, nothing really bad happens to Greer or Susan, it all happens to the people around them… it would seem more realistic if the rape happened right before the superhero arrives, and one of Greer’s younger children (the six year old, perhaps) survived, but was permanently crippled due to injury. To me, that would make the story more compelling and less over-the-top; give some depth to the situation and tragedy beyond “everyone dies”.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Words_on_the_Interweb

It doesn’t come across as sexist, but it does come across as unrealistic; the superhero arrives in the nick of time to prevent the rape, nothing really bad happens to Greer or Susan, it all happens to the people around them… it would seem more realistic if the rape happened right before the superhero arrives, and one of Greer’s younger children (the six year old, perhaps) survived, but was permanently crippled due to injury. To me, that would make the story more compelling and less over-the-top; give some depth to the situation and tragedy beyond “everyone dies”.

Um… you don’t think seeing your husband, son, and babies die in a 24-hour period counts as “something bad happening”?
The hero doesn’t prevent the rape. The mother prevents the rape by attacking the rapist, none of whose comrades assist him because he’s a squad leader and all his subordinates hate him.

The story’s really about the two characters I spoke least of–the two teenagers. But part of the reason for all this horrors happening is that it shows the loss of faith & confidence the populace is goign to be having for the superhero. Greer is the one who vocalizes it, but I’m sure she’s not the only person who thinks, "Where the fuck were you twelve hours ago?

[Gala_Matrix_Fire]

IMHO, I am sick to death of the tragic female character who retreats into catatonia. At this point in your book I would close it and take it back to the library.

PM me if you want more feedback.

[Words_on_the_Interweb]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

Um… you don’t think seeing your husband, son, and babies die in a 24-hour period counts as “something bad happening”?

Of course it does, but other than emotional tragedy, they escape unscathed - everyone they love dies, but somehow they escape without a scratch. Susan going catatonic after a prevented rape and the death of a fiance seems a bit overboard; catatonia would make more sense if she actually had been raped in addition to the fiance’s death. Greer’s reaction seems more realistic, I just think the situation would come across more tragic and her reaction more believable if, rather than dying, one of her kids were mutilated. Although I can also see where a living child would be a distraction from rage, and wanting to go a different direction with her.

But Susan is not raped, as just then the local superhero arrives to dispatch the bad guys.

That quote from your OP is what prompted my comment on the convenient rescue from rape; your further explanation that Greer interfered to prevent it makes the scenario and characters more interesting. Obviously it’s difficult to get a full picture of the story from a brief summary; I’m sure things are more clear and come across better (more cohesive, less cliche) in the full story.

[Sam_Lowry]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

But then it occurred to me that I was having two female characters pretty much lose it, while the men stayed sane, and I feared I was working from a sexist assumption.

It doesn’t seem unrealistic or sexist for Susan and Greer to completely lose it, but something is wrong if the men stay sane. They are all in a city that’s been invaded, and they are seeing death all around them. I would expect them all to be freaking out, just to different extents. Like the 50-something man, I would expect him to become angry and start raging at the world. Or maybe he appears to stay strong and leads the group, but when he says he needs to go behind those trees to take a whiz, the other characters can hear him crying, and he comes back with red eyes. I would expect all the characters to be freaking out, because even if none of their friends or family were killed, their city/country was invaded and life probably isn’t going to be returning to normal soon.

So in my opinion, it’s not necessarily sexist for Susan and Greer to have such extreme reactions, but it’s unrealistic/very weird if everyone else stays sane. They could maybe be more sane than Susan and Greer, but not completely sane.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Sam_Lowry

It doesn’t seem unrealistic or sexist for Susan and Greer to completely lose it, but something is wrong if the men stay sane.

That’s what was bugging me: the fact that it’s just women who lose it. Even though not all the women do.

:: checks manuscript ::

At this point in the story there are eight characters left in the evac group: one adolescent male, one young adult male, one middle aged male, one adolescent female, two young adult females, and two middle-aged females. Both of those who show immediate signs of heavy psychic trauma are females.

I’m sure everybody in the group is going to have a hard time getting through this in the long term; that’s one of the ideas I’ve had in mind throughout the process of woking on this part of the story. It was that BOTH people who lose it are women.

On the other hand…they’re also the two who lose the most, simply because they’re the ones with the most connections to others in the group. Basically their entire blended family is destroyed. Contrariwise, one only other character loses a blood relative.

@Words on the Interweb

@me

Um… you don’t think seeing your husband, son, and babies die in a 24-hour period counts as “something bad happening”?

Of course it does, but other than emotional tragedy, they escape unscathed - everyone they love dies, but somehow they escape without a scratch. Susan going catatonic after a prevented rape and the death of a fiance seems a bit overboard; catatonia would make more sense if she actually had been raped in addition to the fiance’s death. Greer’s reaction seems more realistic, I just think the situation would come across more tragic and her reaction more believable if, rather than dying, one of her kids were mutilated. Although I can also see where a living child would be a distraction from rage, and wanting to go a different direction with her.

I’d not say they escape without a scratch, as everybody is injured. And Susan loses her mother too, as it’s her mother who saves her from the rape, at the cost of her own life.

It’s off-topic, but your evaluation of emtional tragedy seems…odd. I’ve been severely injured enough to be hospitalized, and I’ve lost both a parent and a child to death. The latter is much worse than the former, and I should think that if they had died violently and suddenly, the trauma would be even greater.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I’d not say they escape without a scratch, as everybody is injured. And Susan loses her mother too, as it’s her mother who saves her from the rape, at the cost of her own life.

It’s off-topic, but your evaluation of emtional tragedy seems…odd. I’ve been severely injured enough to be hospitalized, and I’ve lost both a parent and a child to death. The latter is much worse than the former, and I should think that if they had died violently and suddenly, the trauma would be even greater.

Plus Susan’s gotta be feeling some survivor guilt, if her mother died protecting her from the rape attempt. Not saying she SHOULD feel guilty but it’s understandable if she does.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Freudian_Slit

Plus Susan’s gotta be feeling some survivor guilt, if her mother died protecting her from the rape attempt. Not saying she SHOULD feel guilty but it’s understandable if she does.

Yeah. As I currently have it written, she shuts down after her mother dies. She has two workmates in the group–the young adult male and the other middle-aged female-- who have to force her to do even move after that.

Reading through my work for today,and this thread, I think what was bothering me was that her male friend, in taking care of Susan thus, seems so much stronger than she. Of course, he hasn’t lost a mother & fiance in 16 hours, either.

[Words_on_the_Interweb]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

It’s off-topic, but your evaluation of emtional tragedy seems…odd. I’ve been severely injured enough to be hospitalized, and I’ve lost both a parent and a child to death. The latter is much worse than the former, and I should think that if they had died violently and suddenly, the trauma would be even greater.

Hmm, well, when someone dies, they’re gone, you grieve, it’s over (unless you indulge yourself in excessive wallowing). They can’t be hurt any longer, and while it’s painful at first for them to be gone, there is a certain comfort in knowing they aren’t suffering. Someone you love is crippled permanently, you have the rest of their life to deal with the tragedy of it, their struggle with their disability, the limitations on what was once unlimited potential… to me, that’s more tragic than death and makes for more interesting character development. Perhaps my perspective is odd as you say though; I’ve dealt with a lot of death, from various extended family and friends to the grandparents who virtually raised me, so I may be more pragmatic/stoic than the average person.

As to your story and characters, the more you reveal in your posts, the more the story takes shape and seems less banal, with their reactions becoming more believable and understandable given the context. It hasn’t come across as sexist in your descriptions here, even with your recent mention of Susan’s male caretaker. His looking after Susan could easily be developed as focusing on her to avoid his own emotions - that doesn’t make him specifically strong or unaffected by the events, just dealing with them differently.

[Lakai]

Without any background about the characters this is kind of an unfair question.

Hardness to tragic events doesn’t come naturally. The ones that deal with it best either have no choice (soldiers) or they have experience with it. It really doesn’t matter if this happens to the only two female characters in your story if it fits well with their backgrounds. If it doesn’t then you have more problems with the story than sexism.

Aside from that, two generic women should react pretty emotionally to the death of most of their family. Men should react the same way, especially if they’re middle class guys who are not used to such severe hardship.

What I think is unrealistic in most books and movies is that men who have never experienced hardship seem to handle it very well. When I think of a realistic reaction to the lost of a loved one I think of Nate from Six Feet Under, who lost someone important and became emotionally crippled for a couple of episodes.

[Angel_of_the_Lord]

IMHO, the raging one seems realistic, as do the circumstances surrounding it. The rape/mother/catatonia thing, however, seems grossly over the top. It seems to cross the line from drama to melodrama. This is partially because I think catatonia as a plot device is hard to use.

Honestly, if she doesn’t need to survive, I’d have her off herself. Less stereotypically female response (yes, I know, it’s not, but. . .I mean, I hear that, and I immediately think of Barbara in “Night of the Living Dead” as well as the whole fainting woman thing). Additionally, it allows for some additional brutality and shock instead of repeated instances of “Susan stares into space like well-cooked broccoli”.

[Freudian_Slit]

@Words_on_the_Interweb

Hmm, well, when someone dies, they’re gone, you grieve, it’s over (unless you indulge yourself in excessive wallowing). They can’t be hurt any longer, and while it’s painful at first for them to be gone, there is a certain comfort in knowing they aren’t suffering. Someone you love is crippled permanently, you have the rest of their life to deal with the tragedy of it, their struggle with their disability, the limitations on what was once unlimited potential… to me, that’s more tragic than death and makes for more interesting character development. Perhaps my perspective is odd as you say though; I’ve dealt with a lot of death, from various extended family and friends to the grandparents who virtually raised me, so I may be more pragmatic/stoic than the average person.

Wow. What was your life like? The two Kill Bill movies?

[StGermain]

Just don’t kill the dog. (There has to be a dog, right?)

StG