What’s AIS again?
The question is whether the partner is likely to care about it. Sexual reassignment, some people care about it. Does AIS include that?
I disagree with the above because of the below -
If the criterion is as widespread as the one under discussion, I think you do.
There’s whole bunches of stuff that people take for granted, because exceptions are so rare.
Well, since the overwhelming majority of women were born that way, it is not particularly unrealistic to expect the exceptions to make their status clear.
Like I said earlier, I do not believe that transgendered people aren’t aware that their status is a deal-breaker for most people. It beggars belief to have someone turn around and say “I had no idea you would feel that way, so I never mentioned it”.
I mean, come on.
But that would be an unrealistic assumption, in a way that assuming that a woman who appears to be a woman was born that way is not. Transsexuals are extremely rare. The desire not to have sex with a transsexual is quite common.
One has a duty at least of charity not to take advantage of a natural assumption. Especially not one as natural as not wanting to have sex with anyone who is or used to be a man.
You want people to sound like Joe McCarthy - “Are you now, or have you ever been a [del]member of the Communist party[/del] a man?” Who needs a pick-up line like that?
Regards,
Shodan
Sorry. Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Technically, the body is male, (XY chromosomes). But it’s unaffected by testosterone, so it doesn’t develop a penis or outward male signs. It has testicles in the abdomen that are usually removed when the condition is discovered and the external parts of a female (clitoris, first 1/3 or so of a vagina, labia, etc.) but no ovaries or uterus. And develops as a female (has breasts, looks discernibly female). I think the condition is usually detected at puberty when there’s no menstruation–the woman with AIS just thinks of herself as that–as female. She’d have no reason to think of herself as a man.
Hmm, how strange. In what weird and wacky ways the human body can malfunction (and I think we can all agree that this, this is a malfunction).
I think it really comes down to whether the woman thinks that it might be of some significance to the person she’s interacting with. If she honestly doesn’t…well, then she may be making a potentally problem-causing error, but she’s certainly not deliberately deceiving anybody.
By similar logic, though I am diabetic, I am not being unethical by not drawing attention to it because I honestly don’t think it’ll be a deal-breaker. If it is, well, dang, that’s going to be a problem. But you can’t say I was trying to fool you about it.
On the uther hand, “married” is a condition that many would find disturbing, and so you really ought to mention that.
All that said, I don’t think that anybody who has lived as one gender and now lives as another is unaware that this is likely to be an issue.
I am just asking about stuff you raised, not me. Feel free to stop at any time, as I said. we will both live it you leave us all hanging. It is up to you to share or not.
That’s fine. Let’s go with that. At least I understand that part for you now.
And while you are swearing like a sailor, you are avoiding the question. “No comment” is so much nicer 
The question is this - what is the difference in your mindset at the moment of that first romantic kiss to the moment before?
I assume you are feeling romance, right?
And based on your earlier mention, which you seemm to think I didn’t see, you said you will run screaming.
So if while you are kissing her, you slide your hand down to her crotch and feel a bulge, you are going to get up and immediately run away, and that is the end of it?
Is that what you are saying? Do I understand?
If so, how are you really harmed? You kissed someone you didn’t like and you ended it quickly. What is the harm? Seems no harm no foul to me, but what about you?
No one said you did. Maybe the risk is you you break her heart and don’t accept her calls to find out why. Sheesh. Don’t overreact! Take a deep breath.
OTOH, maybe your homophobic bigot neighbor friend says I saw you holding hands and kissing that girl and she aint no girl and now we know about you too and then who knows what happens. I dunno, but you introduced the homophobic bigoted character as a staple of your state, and while I will give you a pass on the homophobe word games for yourself, you can’t seriously believe that people will interpret a claim that a large group of guys in idaho are homophobic bigots, that it is functionally equivalent to agoraphobia or being afraid of the number 13 for all of them.
Sorry. Can’t have it both ways. I read that sequence earlier to be that while you are not a threat, others in the state certainly might be. Am I wrong about that, or is there homophobia, despite being laced with bigotry you don’t have personally, as benign as it is for you?
If so, what was the point of mentioning it at all?
I don’t have vicious fantasies.
Why refer to your statemates as a class as homophobic bigots ? Don;t you knwo what that means to people?
Sheesh. I try to find middle ground and you can’t even accept that.
How old are you? Maybe we should really start with the basics!
If you think you have never met a homosexual person of either gender, are you in fact agoraphobic?
Forget kissing one, I wonder what you would do if you met one, or how you would know if you met one or not!
In this thread? I may have missed it - can you point me to the posts?
fair enough. relax, I won’t bring it up if I see you in another thread.
I am not turning your words into anything. I have never been to Idaho, although I used to business with some folks there I would see a couple of times a year at conferences. They seemed fine, but they were not natives. I am aware of the reputation, but I am not painting anyone with a brush. You brought it up, I am treating you as knowledgeable about the topic and trying to ascertain what you meant precisely. Unsuccessfully I might add, but getting there slowly but surely.
Is that your answer to the OP?
And regardless, if it is improbable to ask about it when you are already in it, kissing romantically and liking it, at what precise instant does it become a dealbreaker? Dude, you saw her, you liked her, you chatted her up, you are kissing her. Is it really different then “beer goggles”? You did it of your own free will. If you don’t want the risk of what happens with “beer goggles”, then limit your drinking. If you don’t want the risk of getting romatically involved with someone you deem to be a guy, then find out to your satisfaction before you get romatically involved.
I am a guy, I take it you are too. If you met me, jut by looking, you can decide not to get romantically involved. Others, it might be a little harder to be sure. what is so hard about asking?
Maybe you are afraid if you asked a real girl if she had a dick she would slap you?
That seems like a fair anxiety to me, but I bet with a little thought you could find a standard way to phrase it that would make you look better in her eyes and make her feel more special too! Win win win!
You don’t do this either. As you’ve admitted yourself - you forgot to ask about antisemitism! Oh noes! You left an item out of your thousands-of-items-long checklist that you make every girl go through before you meet them!
No one asked you that.
I asked you how your homophobia manifested itself, not if you are afraid of meeting another homophobe. Since you said there are lots of them in your state, I assume you meet lots of them.
equally stupid to the one you imagined I asked you?
I don’t mind being crushed by a meteorite. Seems as good a way to go as any. I will live forever in wikipedia, that’s for sure!
And for the record, it was YOU who said your homophobia was akin to agoraphobia, I didn’t pull that analogy out of the air.
Or are you just implying you have some generalized fear or anxiety when “confronted” with being under the sky in your neighborhood?
When you are not even sure if you have ever met a homosexual or not, I wonder how can you be certain that you would be harmless when confronted with a romantic kiss from a transgendered person?
I doubt the Andrade guy convicted this week could say in advance that he would kill in such a case, and I also think the guys who killed Gwen Aruajo would have said they will kill in that situation. But they all did.
I dunno too much to go through. More interesting, would be a straight and complete answer on the nature of your homophobia, how itis relevant to the discussion, and how it is differentiated from the bigoted kind prevalent in your state.
If you could do that, all in one place, we’d probably be able to wrap this up quickly It is all I am after really, and it is a deliberately open question.
You have never met a homosexual, yet somehow you know about my fantasies? Hmmm…
So tell me, if I got to Idaho, how can I tell the non-violent non-bigoted homophobes such as yourself from the bigoted violent ones? Are there violent non-bigoted ones, and/or bigoted, non-violent ones too? How can I tell any homophobes from non-homophobes?
Do they come in female varieties too?
Is it remotely possible that in the state of Idaho, some of any type of homophobes are also homosexual or bisexual themselves?
Like you said, it is not the biggest state, so it is rare that we get someone on the ground so to speak who can answer these kinds of things first hand, in order to fight our ignorance, as we say on sdmb.
That is a better example - I think I mentioned it to, possibly after you wrote this, but before I saw it.
Is it an ETHICAL obligation to state if you are married, and if so when and to whom?
And if so, how? Single and married people alike can wear or not wear rings - that is a signal but not a perfect one.
Ethics doesn’t mean what you think it means.
Sure, 1st Amendment and all.
Or they might not.
If something is important, than ask.
or if you are a guy going out for a bj with a girl you hooked up with on craigslist, and you don’t even care her name or what she looks like, then who cares?
For every example there is a counter example.
If it is important to you, then ask.
So it’s my fault you’re arguing so, shall we say, poorly?
Avoiding the question? Not the ones you asked.
And if we are at my apartment, then she’s the one that’s leaving. But yes, one of us is out of there, in a hurry. Like I said previously.
And the harm to me is that I was led to believe that the situation was one thing when it was another, by somebody who knew that was happening, and thereby I was made to do things that I would not knowingly do and will thereafter regret doing.
I suppose you don’t see that as a bad thing.
The point of mentioning it was, as you certainly already know if you have read a single word of what you’re responding to, to support my thesis that I think I am unlikely to encounter a transsexual person.
I will expand on that now, though, and put together that with another fact that has been repeated to you many times: It supports my thesis that I am certain never to encounter a transsexual person who is unaware that my feelings about transsexuality are a potential problem issue, that she should find out about before she decides to advance the relationship - and that should tell me about her transsexuality if she decides to attempt to continue the relationship.
Iff’n you say so.
Well, let me precise. I referred to my state as a “bastion of bigotry”. That doesn’t mean everyone in it is a bigot, just that they’ve got a good foothold here. I have also said that some people here are bigots.
I said that because some of them are bigots. Also because that fact supports my position, making it relevent to mention.
I accepted it - just not graciously. But then, I am irritated at the way you seem to have been trying to smear me throughout this thread.
I’m 32, at the moment. I am in fact agoraphobic. I don’t meet lots of people.
Odds are good I wouldn’t know if I met one. But if did, I would immidiately take out my chainsaw, which I always carry with me, and chop them to peices. Just ‘cause I’m like that, you know. All homophobes are, you know. All of us walking around with our chainsaws in our back pockets, usin’ em on those of non-standard gender. You know how it is.
:rolleyes:
My first post.
I don’t care if you do, so long as you manage to remember what a homophobe actually is and remember that it doesn’t necessarily mean bigot - and remember that in my case, it certainly doesn’t.
Yawn. This old crap again. Make some kind of sensible argument against the fact that the person who knows about the rare and otherwise undetectable condition that is known to be objectionable is the person who is under the onus to make sure that it isn’t actually a problem, and I’ll respond to the the moronic suggestion that I need to grill every person I interact with about every possible issue that might be a problem.
I’m starting to wonder if you don’t occasionaly leave stuff you meant to quote outside the quote marks.
Bah, I meant to type transsexual there, not homophobe. Darn brain-finger connection.
Equally stupid to the one you did ask, and which I had a mental lapse in typing the answer to.
Ah, yes, we’re back to the, “No, really, are you sure you aren’t a vicious killer” line. I had begun to get nostalgic for that, you had been off it so long.
Have you ever met a person with three arms? Can you prove that you wouldn’t immidiately kill them? Note that a prior example of you meeting a person with three arms and not killing them will be required as part of your answer.
Okay, why not. It’s not really all that relevent to the topic, but whatever.
My homophobia comes from a failure to put homosexuals (and transsexuals) into any existing gender classification category which I have ammassed behavioral expectations about. So, as they are outside any existing classification, I do not know how they will react to anything. This makes them unpredictable, and thus, scary.
Note that this isn’t just a lack of knowledge, it’s a lack of experience - so while I might intellectually know that the person is arguably as harmless (if not as predictable) as a conventially-gendered person, that doesn’t change my visceral gut-level reaction, which is to remove myself from the unpredictable situation.
Fear, of course, is handled by different people in different ways. I’m a flight-type. Some people, gutsier, more manlier types than me, are fight-types. Especially when they feel that they need to assert their testosterone. These types can definitely cause problems.
I’ll note that I also think that those who are afraid of “threats to their masculinity” are actually homophobic for the same reasons I am (which have nothing to do with my own masculinity) and are misidentifying the source of their unease. (I think that the same goes for “threats to marriage”, by the way.)
Note that homophobia is not the only possible reason for homophobic-style bigotry. Most of the people I know are anti-gay and will vote it for religious reasons. They may, or may not, also be homophobes in the manner I am. You can probably be sure than any who actually assult somebody are homophobic at the categorization-level too, though (and that they’re fight-types as well - and presumably have either very poor self-control and/or a very stong fear).
Well, you’ve been typing words and stuff on this message board, see. Based on what you say, and how you say it, and how you keep persistently trying to fit me into your mental categorization of “violent bigoted homophobe” because that seems to be the only mental category you have for “homophobe”…well, I make extrapolations based on these things you type. Sorry. Can’t help it.
Sorry, never took a poll.
All of the people I’ve solicited opinions from who are bigots (aside from myself, and it is a very small group) are anti-gay for religious reasons, making it difficult to discern whether they also have a fear reaction to gays. It is largely the fact that the state is very red and quite religious, and I have seen a very high correlation of redness and religion with bigotry against homosexuals, that I categorize the state as a bastion of bigotry.
I assume that reactions like mine are present in females too; I don’t see anything about my reaction that would make it gender-specific.
I assume that there are some self-hating closet homosexuals, yes. Not based on local data, though - it just seems likely that some exist, probabilistically and psychologically speaking.
Says you.
If they have reason to know that I think it would be important, I shouldn’t have to.
Unless they’re evil bastards who like to use people, that is. Are you proposing that some significant proportion of transsexuals are evil bastards who like to use people? And that their behavior is a model for what ‘ethical’ behavior is?
How about this: I’ll concede that if there is a reasonable expectation that transsexuals I meet are evil bastards who like to use people, that I should find out in advance if they’re transsexual. Of course, asking them won’t cut it - they’d lie.
And sometimes there are applicable counterexamples.
I think I’ll stick with “Asking won’t work” as the answer to this tactic of yours, to totally ignore and fail to rebut the salient arguments that fillet your attempt to put the onus of checking on the non-informed party.
It’s a badly phrased question in any case. Any MTF transsexual can honestly say “No, I was never a man.”. The question “Do you have XY chromosomes?” leaves out AIS women. The question “Were you born with a penis?” includes some XX women born with ambiguous genitals.
I think I raised the married person analogy first, and I still think it’s a pretty good analogy. THe problem here is one of fraud.
Namely, if you believe that you are about to get something of value to you, and you’re about to get it through a voluntary arrangement with another adult, and you have reason to suspect that the adult would not engage in this voluntary arrangement if they knew a certain fact that they’d consider a dealbreaker, and you fail to bring this fact to their attention, you’re committing fraud, sort of fraud by omission.
If I sell you a car, and I fail to mention that I just duct-taped the muffler on, and it falls off soon thereafter, I’ve committed fraud. If I do a vacation-home swap with you, and I don’t mention that my next-door neighbor is a crazy cat lady with 100 stinky cats whose revolting odor permeates the air of my house, I’ve committed fraud. And if I go to bed with you, and I fail to mention that I’m transgendered, I’ve committed fraud.
The key elements here are:
- Voluntary transaction.
- Party A knows a fact.
- Party A suspects that Party B would not engage in the tranaction if Party B knew that fact.
- Party A fails to disclose this fact.
I think that prima facie, any time these four conditions are met, you’ve got unethical behavior on the part of Party A. (There are exceptions, e.g., buying a train ticket used to smuggle Jews out of Nazi-occupied countries; but prima facie it’s unethical).
No, let;'s not say that, as you are arguing, full of ad hominem and straw man attacks. and I am just trying to get to know you.
Sure, whatever you say.
Since you seem to think you have never met a homosexual, unless you never go out in public, that is inconceivable. so you think you have answered, fine, I get that and I accept that. But your standard, given your apparent tenuous grasp on reality in thinking you have never met a homosexual, is something we have to take into account when we try to ascertain what you mean.
You were made to do things. Hmm. Was there a gun at your back? How did she force you kiss her? Do you have free will?
What other things in life are you made to do?
Dude, accept a little responsibility for your life!
I see it as bizarre. Like a rape defense in 1940 was being laid out right before my very eyes: “It was the way she was dressed your honor! She made me do it!”.
Oh, so saying you are a homophobe is supposed to be evidence that you will be unlikely to encounter a transexual person?
Maybe homophobe doesn’t mean what you think it means either. It doesn’t mean you avoid homosexuals,which it occurs to me now that you might think that is what it means.
I
OK, now I am almost sure it does not mean what you think it means.
OK, so if you look it up, you are going of find a darn near consensus that homophobia is a subset of bigotry. so if you don’t know or realize that, that might be the source of the confusion between us.
It does NOT mean “avoids homosexuals”.
But don’t take my word for it, look it up yourself.
I am not smearing you. I am trying to make sense of what you say, and being darn patient at it too.
Ah, I see. OK, that helps some to understand your life experience a little. thank you!
See how hard it might be to share something personal, and we are not even intimate. I had to ask many times from many different directions to understand that about you, and it is important I think to know in order to understand your thesis.
An agoraphobe with a sense of humor! Hot! 
My first post.
I never said it does.
But maybe you should look it up, like I said. You might be in for a surprise.
I thought you said you were answering the questions.
Dude, if for some girl, dating an agoraphobe is out because, well, she will never get to go anyplace with you the way she wants, do you blurt it out to every pretty girl you meet? Or do you leave it up to them to either ask or find out about you over time?
Because an agoraphobic guy is a pretty rare condition too you know, and it surely affects dating and romance possibilities as much as being TG does, maybe more.
Yeah, looks like I did.
so in one breath you slam me for a missed quote ta, and in the next you gloss over your own typo that changed the meaning of the sentence?
Equally stupid to the one you did ask, and which I had a mental lapse in typing the answer to.
Well, you asserted you are not, the world is full of explicit counter examples, many rotting away in jail, and they were all similar to you in their trials they said they never would do this stuff before, they were made to do it, etc.
and since you don’t even know any homosexuals, how can you know how you will act?
You can avoid the question if you want, but it is a fair one. Man up and say I don’t really know never having been in the position, that is a fine answer. Itis true for most people. And most people, having been in that position, will be fine and manage gracefully.
But if you look at guys who, inadvertently got into that position and split into 2 groups, homophobes and non-homophobes, I think you would find more homophobes among the ones who ended up on trial.
That you said you would literally run or make her leave your place quickly, instead of winding things down gracefully raises my eyebrow. It is not proof of anything, but it is a red flag. Just saying you might want to consider that one night when you are calm, relaxed, tired and about to go to sleep, just you and the pillow.
Odds are, you are fine. But, well, wow. Not WOW, just wow.
Are there people with 3 arms? Or are we discussing people who really do exst despite your assertino you never met them and the ones with sense have left your state due to the other guys who are bigots if they know what is good for them?
OK, now I know tht homophobia doesn’t mean what you think it means.
I know this is your reality, but it is not what it means in the world.
Let me just say briefly, I don’t know if you are getting help for your agoraphobia, but if and when you do, you might consider asking them about this “homophobia” too.
These are good topics for another discussion, but would only hijack this one. Feel free to start another thread sometime.
Yeah, I know you can;'t help it. Because you are attributing things to me that I didn’t say or even hint at. I never said you are violent or suggested it. I asked, and now I see, with very good reason, for you to explain yourself because your word usage seemed “off” to me from the beginning.
I live in such an area too.
Can you imagine why a tg (who is not necessarily homosexual any more then you or I are) might not want to blurt that out to every guy that shows an interest?
Who said anything about “self hating closet homosexuals”? Why do you bring it up?
And given the prevalence of violent anti-gay men in the region you just described and your willingness to get involved romantically with them compared to others, how are they supposed to discern that you are not in fact interested, and that while you are not violent, you are homophobic too just the same?
Given your tongue in her mouth kissing in your apartment, why on earth would she think you don’t like her?
How would they know precisely if you haven’t told them?
Have you ever HAD a relationship?
I hope you are just being funny. Otherwise I am this close to reconsidering my “won’t turn violent” feeling about you.
And sometimes there are applicable counterexamples.
But given you know you have an irrational fear, is it possible that is just your fear trying to make itself seem rational?
It might see rational to you, but to us out here, it is looking increasingly hinky. don’t shoot me, I am just the messenger.
I think the question people are looking for here is “Is there any chance in hell my dick will touch another dick if we go further?”
You might make a legal case if there is something of value gained or lost (and I concede lawyers can be very creative in finding that value).
But the law is not ethics and vice versa.
While we are subject to the law and its penalties, there is no universally applicable set of ethics that I am aware of, but every good bookstore is full of books discussing various systems for consideration.
This:
And this:
There are lots of factors which could change someone’s decision about whether or not to have sex with you, but being a pre-op transperson is one of the most likely ones.
Transgendered people who are pre-op should definitely let their potential sexual partner know before genitals come into play. I really don’t think it’s homophobic to prefer the set of genitals that does it for you. It would also be just a little hurtful to be having lustful kisses with someone only for them to recoil in horror once their hands stray below your waistline. Better to find out their reaction before then.
Post-op transgendered people (those whose ops have been successful) should let their partner know at some point, certainly, but not necessarily for all one-night-stand type encounters.
I’m pretty sure this is what my TG friends would say.
‘Ethics’ isn’t a word that fits well into this sitation for me, though; not sure why.
Cosmetic surgery does not make someone male or female. While it may make someone feel better psychologically to have it done it is a biological misrepresentation and should be addressed before dating.
No, it’s not - one can always change the commonly accepted meaning of terms and then pretend to misunderstand.
“Man” means XY chromosomes and a penis. For 99.9% of the population that is perfectly clear.
There’s a fairly long Pit thread discussing the arbitrary nature of terms that might enlighten the subject.
Regards,
Shodan
It can also mean XYY, XYYY, XXYYY, and so on. It’s not as simple as most people think.
No, it doesn’t.
It means “someone who does the marenga with a Golden Retriever while wearing jewelry made from my grandmother’s kidney stones”.
What are you, some kind of homophobe?
Regards,
Shodan
This is not related to teh OP, even if you think it is cute.
In any question of the form “Is X **ethically obligated **to Y in situation Z”
, then if you posit the answer is “yes”, and you want to persuade people itis true rather then a baseless opinion, then you need to present:
1 - evidence of an ethical code
2 - evidence that Y is bound to that ethical code in situation Z
So far I have not seen any respondent even hint at evidence of 1 or 2.
You are all tilting at windmills with regard to the OP.
There is no such ethical code.
Hence the answer is NO.
I think it’s a pretty bad one. First, people choose to be married, and if they don’t like the way that being married puts a damper on their other romantic prospects then they can choose to get a divorce. There is no longer any great social stigma involved in being divorced, and I doubt anyone here would say that divorcees have a responsibility to warn their sexual partners first. (That’s the kind of thing you’d want to know in a serious relationship, but not necessarily before any sexual encounter.) Transgendered people have no similarly easy way to rid themselves of the stigma of being transgendered.
Second, the reason why most single people wouldn’t want to sleep with a married person is because doing so would hurt an innocent third party – the married person’s spouse. There is nothing comparable involved in having sex with a transgendered person.
Most people have ignored my question about intersexed people and my anecdote about my biracial friend, but I think either of those would be a much better analogy for being transgendered.
*Maybe some transgendered people don’t believe that they’re so damaged or disgusting that they are obligated to warn others away from having sex with them. Or maybe they don’t consider sex to be a for-profit transaction like selling a car.
I expect that most transgendered people realize it’s kinder, wiser, and safer to be up front with their sexual partners, but those that fail to do this haven’t cheated anyone. If the question here were “Should transgendered people reveal their history before having sex?” or “Is it better for transgendered people to reveal their history before having sex?” then my answer would be yes, but this kind of thing doesn’t rise to the level of ethical duty.
*By this standard the woman mentioned in post #11 who danced with a guy without telling him she was transgendered committed fraud. My biracial friend committed fraud any time she failed to mention that she was half-black before having sex, or even going on a date. Outside the realm of dating, since transgendered people must be aware that they are an unpopular minority group then it’s fraudulent for them to engage in practically any transaction (renting an apartment, applying for a job, selling a used car) without disclosing to the other party they they are in fact transgendered. EpicNonsense said in #11 that he wouldn’t even want to meet a transgendered person without being told and there are probably many others who feel the same way, so I guess anything short of wearing a T-shirt that says “HI, I’M TRANSGENDERED!” all the time is fraud.
I don’t buy it. This is not a reasonable standard for fraud. If Party A is not intentionally being deceptive or if Party B does not suffer any real damages or loss as a result of this deception then it isn’t fraud.
I also don’t think it’s fair to assume that #3 is always true when it comes to transgendered people and their sex lives. Not everyone is opposed to the idea of having sex with a transgendered person. As I mentioned before, in The Crying Game Dil has good reason to believe that Fergus knows all about her and that he’s into it. A similar misunderstanding could arise in real life. I’m sure there are also transgendered people who are just kind of clueless. I wouldn’t be surprised if some post-op transwomen honestly believed that for straight men no penis = no problem and don’t suspect that the “phantom shade of penis past” would be a dealbreaker.
Everyone is entitled to their own preferences, but everyone also bears the responsibility of screening their potential sex partners to be sure they’re up to these standards. Other people don’t have a duty to recuse themselves if these standards have never even been mentioned.