Do we have a responsibility to accept transgendered individuals?

[Kimstu]

@Urgk.

I mean, I see it as closely related to (though not a perfect parallel with) a hypothetical situation in which a relative of mine might walk up and declare that while I and my family all call him “Bob,” he is, in fact Napoleon Bonaparte and I should address him as such. This thread seems to have been started with the question, “Are we obligated to call Bob “Napoleon” and act as if he is the Emperor of France?” […]

Am I way off here?

I think so. The most glaring difference is that being His Imperial Majesty Napoleon Bonaparte is clearly an objective identity, insofar as anything in human history can be truly objective. We know there was a historical figure named Napoleon Bonaparte. We know that he was a Corsican native who conquered a lot of territory, lost an important battle at Waterloo, did time on the Isle of Elba, and died in 1821, and hence we know that he’s not your relative Bob. These facts don’t change just because Bob somehow psychologically identifies with Napoleon.

An individual’s gender identity, on the other hand—the psychological identification with the concept of “being a man” or “being a woman”—is a profoundly subjective identity. Unless we insist that gender is the same thing as biological sex and is totally determined by the form of one’s genitals, we have to acknowledge that an individual’s gender is at least partly determined by what gender he or she feels him/herself to be.

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@mswas

So the physiological makeup of a person with mental illness’s mind is irrelevant to his/her condition?

Try to keep up. I said there are people who are ignorant enough to still think that mental illness (the physiological conditon) is just a matter of will and that it can be overcome if the sick person will just smarten up. This is the ‘a kick in the butt will fix anything’ school of thought. These people are idiots because we now know that mental illness is physiological and not just a matter of not being ‘strong enough’.

So are you planning to stick with your idea based on your thoughts and feelings, or will you look at some actual information and maybe learn a thing or two that you don’t seem to know?
http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=435
(fyi the NHS is sort of the British equivalent of the NIH)
http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+gender+dysphoria.htm
(from an important mental health charity)

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@Urgk.

Oh, and if it is a medical condition, are surgeons obligated to do brain scans proving the abnormality before surgery?

Why is it your business what someone else does about his or her sexual identity? Do you realize that your neighbour may have sex with shoes? That the folks in the next block may be swingers? Hell, you yourself could be a kinkmeister. What does or should it matter what another person is or does sexually? How can this possibly be justified as business that concerns you? Simple answer: it cannot.

[Miller]

@Urgk.

Is that from a particular study or professional medical journal? If so, I’d be interested to read about it. I keep hearing that it’s not a choice, that those around the transgendered are obligated to accept them as the opposite sex, but it’s always struck me as a sort of semi-socially-acceptable delusion. I mean, I see it as closely related to (though not a perfect parallel with) a hypothetical situation in which a relative of mine might walk up and declare that while I and my family all call him “Bob,” he is, in fact Napoleon Bonaparte and I should address him as such. This thread seems to have been started with the question, “Are we obligated to call Bob “Napoleon” and act as if he is the Emperor of France?”

Transexuality isn’t a delusion. When a transexual man says he’s “really” a woman, he’s refering to an interior state, not an exterior reality. He knows he has a penis. He just would rather that he didn’t. This is more analogous to your cousin Bob asking to be called Napoleon, not because he thinks he’s the emperor of France, but because he hates the name Bob and thinks Napoleon sounds sexier. Sure, you could keep calling him Bob, even though you know it really bothers him, but why be a dick about it?

If there is no physiological difference in transgendered people, then I say “no, we’re not obligated to accept it.” In fact, I think friends and family members are morally obligated to find psychological help for the person to accept themselves and their bodies as a given. Anything else would, in my mind, encourage a large-scale, self-destructive, delusional act. Especially in the case of male-to-female surgery, where, from what I’ve heard, the body seems to act as if the new vagina were a permanently opened wound.

So, say your cousin Bob says he wants to be called Roberta. You take him to the best psychologist in the land, who spends months in therapy with your cousin, to finally return a diagnosis of extreme gender dimorphism, and recommends that he investigate hormone replacement and possible reassignmet surgery as the best course of treatment? Do you take him to the second best psychologist in the land and hope for a verdict more in line with your preconceptions? If he gets it wrong, too, how far down the line do you go before you accept that gender reassignment might actually be the best treatment?

And what say, if any, does Bob get in all of this?

Am I way off here?

So far off, you have to measure it in astronomical units.

Oh, and if it is a medical condition, are surgeons obligated to do brain scans proving the abnormality before surgery?

Unfortunetly, you can’t scan for this. You have to actually dissect the brain, which means it can only be determined post-mortem.

[Kimstu]

@begbert2

The fact is that around here the default assumption is that the person has one of the two standard sets of piping, and has had it since birth.

Around everywhere, the default assumption is that the person has one of the two standard sets of piping, and has had it since birth. And in the vast majority of cases, that default assumption is correct.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that; I just don’t feel that it morally obligates transsexuals in any way either to advertise the fact that they used to have a different gender, or to conceal that fact.

@begbert2

If this is not the case, you probably had better wear a tranny badge, 'cause otherwise when people finally find out they will probably think that you were deliberately hiding your to-many-of-them-disturbing-and-possibly-disgusting secret out of some deliberate attempt to trick them or something.

But this is an argument on the grounds of practicality: i.e., since other people are likely to be freaked out by transgender, it might be prudent for transgenders to advertise their status so they won’t be seen as having deliberately “tricked” those around them.

However, what mswas was asking about in the “dating issues” comment was not practicality, but ethical responsibility. IMO, a transgender woman is no more morally obligated to reveal her transgender status on a first date than any other woman is morally obligated to reveal similarly personal information in the same circumstances.

@begbert2

The more I think about it the more these arguments based on the “changing social norm” seem to be based on what people wish the way things were, not the way things actually are. Especially when people try to apply these rose-colored arguments to the infamous bigots of Tampa Bay.

Tampa Bay? The Florida city where Stanton lived and worked was Largo. Does Tampa Bay have something to do with it that I don’t know about?

In any case, if you’re arguing that the emerging social norm of considering individuals’ sexual identities irrelevant to their professional lives is a myth, how do you explain the fact that a majority of the residents in Stanton’s county disagreed with the commission’s decision to fire her for being transgendered?

Moreover, four out of five residents said they would accept a boss or someone they supervised who had a sex-change operation.

This hardly suggests that claims of a new MYOB-oriented social norm on sexual identity issues are “rose-colored” or unrealistic.

[Bosstone]

@Urgk.

Oh, and if it is a medical condition, are surgeons obligated to do brain scans proving the abnormality before surgery?

You probably missed Polycarp’s informative post about what all actually goes into the process. You don’t simply get up one day, think, “You know, I’m really a woman,” and schedule an appointment with the chop shop. There is a very lengthy stage of psychological evaluation and hormone therapy, which is arguably more important to the transexual than the actual physical modification. The person has a very, very long time (my friend is at or nearing the 6 month mark of treatment, I can’t remember exactly) to figure out if this is, in fact, what they need to fix what’s wrong with them. By the time the person reaches the surgery stage, they are a woman (or man) physiologically, if not physically.

[Gatopescado]

No.

[lee]

@Oni no Maggie

They have no experience of what it is like to grow up as a girl, to go through puberty as a young woman, to feel the pressures and obstacles and burdends and joys of womanhood. “Woman” is an oppressed class, and for a member of the oppressor class to demand to be accepted as one of the oppressed is a further oppression. It would be like if a white person got their skin tattooed dark and demanded to be accepted as Black by the African-American community.

Objecting to someone because they did not have the same experiences as a natal woman makes me wonder how homogeneous the objector thinks the life experiences of natal women are.

When Barack Obama was questioned about whether he really had a right to call him self black, he noted that cab drivers did not seem to have any trouble identifying his race. While he comes by his skin color the old fashioned way and not via the tattoo needle, his childhood experiences do not reflect those of many blacks in America, yet as his comments regarding taxi drivers indicate that regardless of his past experience, he does now share other experiences with many American blacks.

As it goes with transwomen. After transition, they live as women and are generally treated as women, sharing in the privilege, disadvantage, and general experiences of being a woman. I do not see how asking to be accepted as being a gender that you feel you are and the world sees you as is oppressing to others.

[Fish]

@Miller

Unfortunetly, you can’t scan for this. You have to actually dissect the brain, which means it can only be determined post-mortem.

This isn’t directed to you, Miller, as you know; I always post this link in discussions about the etiology of transsexualism.

Here is a study of the hypothalamus in both straight men and women, gay men, and MtF transsexuals.

The hypothalamus is a sexually dimorphic part of the brain, meaning it looks physically different for men and women. Its function has a great deal to do with a person’s sexual behaviors. After death, the hypothalamus was dissected, revealing a very marked contrast between the various groups.

You will note from the photographs that the hypothalamus of a straight man looks almost identical to the hypothalamus of a gay man. You will also observe that the hypothalamus of a M-t-F transsexual is almost identical to that of a straight woman.

It isn’t “all in your head.” It’s a real and identifiable physiological condition for which we have inadequate tools. The only practical way to identify at-risk patients is counseling and psychiatric help; the only “solution” is sexual reassignment surgery.

If you are looking for nice and easy “brain scan” that can clinically diagnose the condition, this ain’t it — but it does demonstrate there’s something more at work than wishful thinking.

[Kalhoun]

@mswas

Kimstu IYou are talking about cosmetically shifting gender and have them be accepted as their new gender. Stanton is not a woman…period. There are more things that make a woman a woman than a little bit of funky wiring in the cranium.

Tell me…since Stanton does have funky wiring in the cranium, which is that of a woman, and if she does have the surgery to make her outward appearance that of a woman, what part of her isn’t a woman? What are those things that make a woman a woman that she lacks?

[tagos]

@Kalhoun

Tell me…since Stanton does have funky wiring in the cranium, which is that of a woman, and if she does have the surgery to make her outward appearance that of a woman, what part of her isn’t a woman? What are those things that make a woman a woman that she lacks?

Approval from random associations of bigots it seems. My brother became my sister recently - which has helped lift a crushing psychological burden that has crippled her her entire life and caused her great suffering and distress.

She was faced with incredible bigotry. She worked in Army stores issuing equipment including weapons. Her boss actually faked evidence of neglect of duties to the extent of unlocking the arms store and leaving the key down the back of the chair she habitually sat in at break.

Fortunately she had a colleague as witness the store was locked correctly.

But does anyone want to take a guess as to who ended up ‘accidentally’ left off the staff roster when the stores were privatised and so ended up unemployed?

So in summary - screw those heartless bigots who insist on compounding the suffering of others because of their prejudices.

[lee]

@Polycarp

A second has been in the psychological evaluation and hormonal therapy stage during her Doper period. She has not yet had surgery, and in fact was able to beget a baby for the couple with whom she lives, something unexpected due to the hormonal treatments but something all three rejoice in. But she “presents” as a woman, she lives as a woman, and the fact that she still has a penis and testes would have been nobody’s business except for the fact that they remained functional long enough for her to father a child.

One correction, begetting “for the couple” implies some reduction in parental rights or duties, or handing over of them at least. She is in no way a lesser parent than the couple under law or in practice. Also, there is a second baby now.

I must thank you, mswas, your OP and follow up posts provide ample evidence why laws such as the one my state passed forbidding discrimination based on gender expression are very much needed.

[Ludovic]

@Kimstu

Tampa Bay? The Florida city where Stanton lived and worked was Largo. Does Tampa Bay have something to do with it that I don’t know about?

Largo is on Tampa Bay. The city east of Old Tampa Bay is called Tampa.

[mswas]

Kalhoun A vagina and uterus, among other things.

Kimstu Many people are looking for a sexual partner as a prospective mate. Is it fair to get them into an emotional relationship, knowing fully that you cannot fulfill the desire they have entered into the relationship with? Transgendered MtF ARE NOT WOMEN, they might have the hypothalamus of a woman, and it’s unfortunate for them that they are wired in a way that upsets normal roles of gender, but as of yet there is not a surgery that can make them into a woman.

I find it interesting that people are arguing for the rights of one group of people to make up their own minds but against the right of another group of people to make up their minds.

[Kalhoun]

@mswas

Kalhoun A vagina and uterus, among other things.

Kimstu Many people are looking for a sexual partner as a prospective mate. Is it fair to get them into an emotional relationship, knowing fully that you cannot fulfill the desire they have entered into the relationship with? Transgendered MtF ARE NOT WOMEN, they might have the hypothalamus of a woman, and it’s unfortunate for them that they are wired in a way that upsets normal roles of gender, but as of yet there is not a surgery that can make them into a woman.

I find it interesting that people are arguing for the rights of one group of people to make up their own minds but against the right of another group of people to make up their minds.

Those who have the surgery do have vaginas. And many women don’t have uteruses.

[tagos]

@mswas

Kalhoun A vagina and uterus, among other things.

Kimstu Many people are looking for a sexual partner as a prospective mate. Is it fair to get them into an emotional relationship, knowing fully that you cannot fulfill the desire they have entered into the relationship with? Transgendered MtF ARE NOT WOMEN, they might have the hypothalamus of a woman, and it’s unfortunate for them that they are wired in a way that upsets normal roles of gender, but as of yet there is not a surgery that can make them into a woman.

I find it interesting that people are arguing for the rights of one group of people to make up their own minds but against the right of another group of people to make up their minds.

Maybe before you start a post such as this you need to do a little thinking. In what way can’t a transgendered person not meet the emotional and physical needs of a mate? They have emotions and the relevant orifices.

And bigots have no rights we need to consider.

And your evidence free assertion transgendered aren’t women is just that - an assertion. They are women. That you and your fellow-travellers are unable to accept that is firmly YOUR problem.

If people can’t work with the transgendered then they can suck it up, leave or accept being fired with good grace.

[Quiddity_Glomfuster]

@mswas

I find it interesting that people are arguing for the rights of one group of people to make up their own minds but against the right of another group of people to make up their minds.

Since you are either unwilling or unable to abandon your completely erroneous belief that gender is simply a matter of choice, I consider the battle against ignorance to be lost here.

[kimera]

What makes a woman?

The XX chromosomes? I have a friend with de la chapelle syndrome which means she has XX chromosomes yet male genitalia. Unfortunately, her condition was such that she ended up in a state in between and needed to take hormones to go one way. Who are you to stop her from picking the gender she felt more comfortable with? If you think intersexed people who have ambiguous presentation can stay that way with no social consequences then you are incredibly ignorant as to the attitude of the average citizen towards intersexed individuals.

Is it the uterus? I know a girl with Congenital adrenal hyperplasia who was born with a uterus and ovaries yet a sealed vagina and a micropenis. If she doesn’t get the SRS done soon then she could die because when her uteral lining shed. Yet bigots like yourself worked to prevent her from getting her surgery because they just saw it as a sex-change performed on an underaged kid. When will you people wake up and realize that sex is not black and white but grey?

Is it the vagina? I guess you’ve never heard of Androgen insensitivity syndrome which can cause individuals to be born who are XY, have testes and vaginas. A good deal of these women don’t know they are AIS until puberty. Who are you to go in and tell them that they are really men?

Is it the hormones? I’ve had several biological male friends who have hormone levels of biological females. My roommate is one of these individuals and she grows less facial hair than I do. Is your brain too limited to think that maybe whatever is making her body produce female hormones close to the normal female level is causing changes in her brain tissue too?

Transsexuals are not new. There have been treatments and sex changes for thousands of years.

Quite frankly, you should go get yourself educated on the basics of sex before you come back and say anything more in this conversation. Once you understand the basics of sex then come back and we will explain gender to you.

[Kimstu]

@Ludovic

Largo is on Tampa Bay. The city east of Old Tampa Bay is called Tampa.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

@mswas

Kimstu Many people are looking for a sexual partner as a prospective mate. Is it fair to get them into an emotional relationship, knowing fully that you cannot fulfill the desire they have entered into the relationship with?

In the first place, transgender women are by no means the only women who go on dates with men who may have hopes or expectations for a potential relationship that those women cannot fulfill. Plenty of bio-female women have reproductive, sexual, psychological or physical issues that turn out to be deal-breakers for men seeking relationships with them.

Yes, all such issues need to be dealt with honestly when potential mates start discussing relationship possibilities, and that includes the issue of transgender too. But no woman is morally obligated to immediately volunteer information about any of her deeply personal issues that might be relationship deal-breakers as soon as she meets a guy or goes on a first date with him. And that applies to transgender women just as much as to other women.

Like I said, if you absolutely must be sure that any woman that you’re even considering having any kind of a relationship with is bio-female (i.e., non-transgendered), it’s up to you to make that clear to her from the get-go. Or else just avoid getting involved at all with any woman who you suspect might not be bio-female.

In the second place, it is not true that all transgender women “cannot fulfill the desire” of straight men who were initially attracted to them without knowing they were transgendered. There are many transgender women in satisfying emotional and sexual relationships with men who didn’t know of their transgender status when they first met.

Yes, the great majority of straight men would prefer not to date transgender women, and I don’t have a problem with that. People are entitled to their personal preferences, and if a guy happens not to find transgender women appealing (or for that matter fat women, or skinny women, or tall women, or Asian women, or bipolar women, or infertile women, or women with children, or whatever), then he’s perfectly free not to date them.

But that doesn’t obligate a transgender woman to immediately reveal her status to any and every man who might possibly be interested in her. It’s up to men to take the responsibility of selecting their partners carefully, and if they voluntarily rush blindfold into a relationship with somebody who turns out to be not what they expected, I don’t think they have anybody to blame but themselves.

And naturally, all the above applies in the reverse situation too, i.e., women who are concerned about the possibility that they might unknowingly meet or date men who turn out to be transgendered. Although for some reason I don’t think this concern is as big an issue for women as it seems to be for men.

[tagos]

@Kimstu

But that doesn’t obligate a transgender woman to immediately reveal her status to any and every man who might possibly be interested in her. It’s up to men to take the responsibility of selecting their partners carefully, and if they voluntarily rush blindfold into a relationship with somebody who turns out to be not what they expected, I don’t think they have anybody to blame but themselves.

Can’t we find some common ground here to help M and his Ilksters out? Maybe if the transgendered could just wear some sort of coloured triangle?