This is certainly not an anti-semitic post. Or an argument that Israel has no right to exist.
Why do we give them so much financial support. More than any other country. This is a state with a highly educated population (although it is difficult to get a good job even with one). It also has a form of aparthied, where certain citizens (non-jewish Palestinians) are restricted from living in certain neighborhoods, even if they own property there. It just seems that we kiss up to them too much. Once again, I feel it would be a wonderful place to visit. Then again, so would Jordan.
I have asked some of my Jewish friends and their answer seemed to be related to how devout to their faith they were. I have heard “they are free to move out,” to “you’re right, but they have been a consistently good ally in a very volitile region.” The latter one makes more sense to me.
OK. For you religious types, it is the promised land and stuff, but that in no way justifies the forced segregation. Give me comments.
The usual response I’ve heard includes how Israel is the only democracy in the region, and we have the duty to help spread and preserve democracy. (However, it is only a democracy for Jews. Palestinians are second class citizens.) My guess is that it is a combination of this and other factors, such as the American Jewish lobby, residual guilt from WWII, and America’s fascination with the underdog, not to mention religious factors from fundementalists who believe that the State of Israel needs to exist to hasten the return of Christ. I have no problem with Israel’s existence. But I think we are being slightly hypocritical by giving more aid to Israel than the rest of the world combined.
-Dave
“Violence is the last refuge of the ignorant.”
-I. Asimov
Let’s not forget that in the cold war most of Israel’s neighbors were heavily financed by the Soviet Union, so the U.S. naturally went to Israel’s side. In the post Cold war world, If radical Islamic regiems become a threat we may again have reason to heavily invest in Israel.
One other point. During the Cold War the U.S. spent $90 billion a year shoring up Western Europe’s defenses. Seven U.S. divisions were in harm’s way. let’s also remember our expensive military commitments in Asia, especially South Korea, where large numbers of American Soldiers are on the firing line.
The finances for these operations dwarf any money we spend on Israel. Also, Israel has never required any Americans to fight her wars for her. Viewed in this light the money we spend on Israel, a long time ally in an important part of the world, does not seem so disproportionate.
BTW, I agree that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is unjust and Ultimately self-destructive. Hopefully the peace accords will generate real change.
Also, in case anyone reading this is wondering, I am half Jewish (father), but the Jewish side of my family has been strongly anti-zionist. I have a great sympathy for Israel and would have it, I think, Even if I wasn’t Jewish at all. I do have a close Palestinian friend with whom I argue about this all the time
I have mixed feelings on this subject, so I don’t really want to get involved in the debate, but I did want to correct an error.
This recently came to light when a Palestinian family wanted to buy a home in an elite housing development and was refused. He sued, the case went to the Supreme Court, and the practice was declared illegal. So this is no longer true.
There is an early warning station in North Yorkshire called Fylingdales. It is run by the US military. Its purpose is to give early warning to the USA of any missiles flying over Europe in its direction.
Does it contribute to the defence of Britain? No: by the time it detected any missiles heading for us it would be too late.
Is it a strategic liability for Britain? Yes: it is a strategically important site that would become a target in a time of war. No doubt there were Soviet missiles targeted on it during the Cold War.
Larry, is this the kind of thing you had in mind when you referred to $90 billion a year shoring up Western Europe’s defences?
I think that the less money spent on other countries the better!
The u.s. should be addressing issues such as homeless people and poverty and getting their health system running efficiently before spending money on a bunch of crazy camel riding desert rats!!!
Hoo-Flung, you’re a moron. Why do you think the US is #1? I’ll give you a hint. It’s not because we practice isolationist policies. We’re #1 because countries do what we say, 'cause if they don’t they’ll stop getting financial aid or get bombed (depending on race and/or government status).
We’re working on financial Imperialism here. If we give up our “Benjamin colonies” we’ll loose a lot more than just peace from Sally Struthers commercials, we’ll loose the gold medal.
“Violence is the last refuge of the ignorant.”
-I. Asimov
-Yeah, to bad this argument doesn’t work when your getting the crap kicked out of you.
Yes, the USA has bankrolled Israel (to the tune of sveral hundred billion dollars). However, this has not made the Middle East more stable. What really concerns me is the future-it looks like Syria will have a new ruler/tyrant very soon, and that Iraq will succeed in waiting out the UN.Who knows what might happen-the whole area is a powderkeg, and to add to this-the area is running out of water! I don’t thing that the Israel/Jordan/Lebanon area can support much beyond its present population-and (it should be pointed out) Israel has a SUBSTANTIAL rate of out-migration-in 30-40 years, it my well be overwhelmed just by the sheer population disparity.
A big problem is that while there are many highly educated people in Israel, the high end jobs are in tight supply. An Israeli with a masters degree can go to a kibbutz and do manual labor, or come to the U.S. and get a good job.
<< However, it is only a democracy for Jews. Palestinians are second class citizens.) >>
Kindly distinguish between Arab Israeli citizens and Palestinians who are NOT citizens of Israel. Every nation on earth distinguishes between citizens and non-citizens.
Also remember that the majority of Palestinians refused to recognize the right of Israel to exist, and their leaders clamoured for the destruction of Israel. Small wonder there is prejudice against Palestinians.
I have talked to several Arabs who ARE Israeli citizens, and they do not agree with your contention that they are second-class citizens. They are minority citizens, yes, but they have full rights and privileges. (Ask blacks in the U.S. whether they feel they are second-class citizens.)
Uh, excuse me. But aren’t many of these Palestinians born in The land of Israel. Weren’t their families living there for generations. If one is born in Israel citizenship should be a birthrite. There are also many Israelis and Jews who would like to see the Palestinians destroyed. Your argument is no better than the fundy Jew who told me that they are free to leave if they are not happy.
Not every country on this planet follows the theory of jus soil; thefore, the mere fact of being born in the territory of a particular country doesn’t always grant you that “birthright.” A very good example for this is Japan: birth on Japanese territory has no bearing on receiving Japanese nationality, with one extraordinary exception*. As far as the Japanese constitution, government, and people are concerned, if you’re not born to a Japanese citizen, regardless of your birth on their soil, you’re not a Japanese citizen.
ALL countries have the right, and exercise that right, to determine what governs receiving a country’s citizenship at birth. You just might want to quit trying to apply the criteria in the United States constitution to foreign countries. To continue to do so shows ignorance.
*The sole exception to this rule is if the nationality of both parents is unknown. In that case, and if the child is born on Japanese territory, then the child is a Japanese citizen from birth. Feel free to check with a Japanese embassy or consulate for confirmation.
What Monty said. In Germany, you and your parents and even your grandparents could have been born there, but if you’re of Turkish descent, you’re not a German. (I believe this is changing, but it holds true in a number of European countries.)
There are very few Palestinian Arabs who are not citizens of Israel living in Israel today. I believe the people Cooldude is referring to are those who fled when Israel declared independence in 1948. Most ended up in what was then Jordan, and were given Jordanian citizenship, if not much else. (Heard of the refugee camps?) In 1967, when Israel conquered the West Bank, the Palestinians living there retained their Jordanian citizenship. With the exception of East Jeruslem, Israel has NOT annexed that land, and therefore have not conferred citizenship on those people. However, the very many Palestinians who remained in Israel in 1948 do have citizenship, have Israeli passports, etc.
By the way, whoever mentioned the camels and the desert would be surprised by Israel. The desert there is very rocky, hilly, and beautiful, not sandy at all. There aren’t any camels, except for tourism purposes. Much of the country, like the Galil and the Golan, are lush and green with wildflowers in the spring.
I think folks are getting too far from the OP. What does our money to Israel buy us? Even though they are the world leaders in hydroponics (IIRC), they produce precious little else. How cheap would gas be if the Jewish state had been put in Madagascar (the backup site)?
The country has been up and running for over 50 years now. If they needed a hand getting their industry jumpstarted, or something short-term, I can see that. But continual welfare from the US seems illogical. Not only is it money we could probably use somewhere else, it continues a pattern of ‘one-upsmanship’ with their Arab neighbors (oh, Israel got the new F-16’s! We must buy the new MiG!).
A slight hijack-if Israel suddenly found itself without the US in its back pocket, would peace in the region come more quickly?
-sb
“This is going to take a special blend of psychology and extreme violence.”
I can’t speak specifically to the Radar site you mention because I don’t know about it. However NATO was an alliance for mutual defense against the Warsaw Pact, an alliance for which the U.S. paid the Lion’s share. The Europeans would have broken the alliance long ago had they percieved it not to be in their interests. Since the U.S. had many large armored divisions in central europe and it seems to me that placing some Radar stations here and there is not unreasonable, since the europeans ceded their nuclear defense to the U.S.
That being said, the only point I was making was that the reasons the U.S. supports Israel are not simply post-holocaust guilt (which seems absurd, we didn’t commit the holocaust, the Germans did) or Jewish-american influence, but also because Israel seemed to be a valuable cold war ally. When looked at in this regard and in comparison to other U.S. military commitments the aid to Israel does not seem so outlandish.