"Do You Have Any Weapons on You?" and COPS

[Una_Persson]

@Loach

I have asked the question in the OP to many people. It was never to get someone to incriminate themselves. It has always been in a situation in which I am searching or patting them down anyways and will find out for myself. I always ask in hopes that the person is truthful before I hurt myself on whatever they have whether it be needles or an edged weapon. I did have one woman tell me I better put on gloves because she was carrying her vibrator in her pocket. I appreciated the honesty.

You see, I’ve had mixed signals about this.

In my state, it is mandatory that you tell an officer you are carrying if they ask. I found this strange, because I thought you would have to tell them if they ask anyhow… But they explicitly told us that the law did not require proactive informing (that is, if you’re pulled over for a routine traffic stop or DUI checkpoint). A city officer told us we should NEVER proactively inform an officer we’re carrying, as, quoting, “it seems like you’re being aggressive and challenging his authority.” However, a sheriff deputy I asked said “we really appreciate knowing it, but but if you come right out and it’s the first thing you say, it looks suspicious…like you’re bragging.”

I’ve not been pulled over yet while carrying, but I honestly don’t know if I would proactively tell an officer I have my legal CCW in my handbag. Any thoughts on whether it would make sense for an officer to be threatened or intimidated by a lawful CCW holder saying “BTW, I’m a CCW holder and I’m carrying?”

[Loach]

@Una_Persson

You see, I’ve had mixed signals about this.

In my state, it is mandatory that you tell an officer you are carrying if they ask. I found this strange, because I thought you would have to tell them if they ask anyhow… But they explicitly told us that the law did not require proactive informing (that is, if you’re pulled over for a routine traffic stop or DUI checkpoint). A city officer told us we should NEVER proactively inform an officer we’re carrying, as, quoting, “it seems like you’re being aggressive and challenging his authority.” However, a sheriff deputy I asked said “we really appreciate knowing it, but but if you come right out and it’s the first thing you say, it looks suspicious…like you’re bragging.”

I’ve not been pulled over yet while carrying, but I honestly don’t know if I would proactively tell an officer I have my legal CCW in my handbag. Any thoughts on whether it would make sense for an officer to be threatened or intimidated by a lawful CCW holder saying “BTW, I’m a CCW holder and I’m carrying?”

My answer had nothing to do with CCW or routine interactions. I am in a state in which it is nearly impossible to get a carry permit. The only time I have asked the question is like in the OP, when I am about to and have the legal right to search. If in the scenario you state I would see no reason to mention it unless you think the officer might see it and get the wrong idea. It might be better to get it out in the open in that case. I have had LEOs let me know like this in the past and it was never a problem.

[Richard_Parker]

@VOW

The ACLU doesn’t really shiv a git when it comes to Civil Rights violations, unless it’s a big, glam case that will make the news.

HOWEVER, CONTACTING the ACLU and asking for help DOES get you put on their mailing list, and you’ll get solicitations to donate.
~VOW

Off-topic, but just FYI, both of these claims are false.

Calling your local ACLU affiliate does not put you on any mailing list unless you expressly agree to receive mail, and state ACLU affiliates take run-of-the-mill civil rights cases all the time. They don’t take every case, of course, but more often than not they will take it if its a meritorious civil liberties claim, there’s no money in it (so a private attorney won’t take it), and there isn’t someone better suited to handle the matter.

[Bricker]

@handsomeharry

My money says that if you decline to give a yes or no answer, the cop will frisk you if he feels like it, and, if it should go to court, he will tell the judge that you were being evasive, or suspicious, or combative, and you would end up having been searched legally.

hh

Your money is wrong.

[Mister_Rik]

@crowmanyclouds

You can get away with carrying almost anything if you can provide a reasonable, appropriate, lawful use for you to be in possession of it; knives for cutting the ends off cigars (or in my case making straw holes in coffee cups) baseball bats in the warm part of the year but you better have a mitt and a couple of balls too, hammers and box cutters along with a bunch of other tools, tire irons if you’re in a car, martial arts “weapons” along with your uniform, swords and other medieval weapons with garb and a canceled Renfaire ticket, you get the idea.

If I’m on my way to or from work, I routinely have eight knives with me, since I’m a chef and have my own kitchen knives. Granted, the kitchen knives are in a closed knife case, along with my Leatherman (which I’m counting because it has a small knife blade). The eighth knife is the folding box knife in my pocket (cuz I’m not going to use my good kitchen knives to open boxes and such).

As to swords and such, I have a small collection of “decorative” (though still somewhat sharp and pointy) swords. I started the collection during a stretch of time when I didn’t have a driver’s license and had to carry my purchases home on foot. I was talking to a city cop one day and brought up the subject, asking if there were any laws that would prevent me from openly carrying these decorative swords in public, from the place of purchase to my home. He said he didn’t know of any specific law off the top of his head, but added that as long as I had them sheathed and wasn’t waving them around I was unlikely to get in any trouble. Though just to be safe, on one occasion when I bought a particularly large sword, I brought one of my empty bass guitar cases to the store with me and carried the sword home in that.

[Loach]

@Mister_Rik

If I’m on my way to or from work, I routinely have eight knives with me, since I’m a chef and have my own kitchen knives. Granted, the kitchen knives are in a closed knife case, along with my Leatherman (which I’m counting because it has a small knife blade). The eighth knife is the folding box knife in my pocket (cuz I’m not going to use my good kitchen knives to open boxes and such).

As to swords and such, I have a small collection of “decorative” (though still somewhat sharp and pointy) swords. I started the collection during a stretch of time when I didn’t have a driver’s license and had to carry my purchases home on foot. I was talking to a city cop one day and brought up the subject, asking if there were any laws that would prevent me from openly carrying these decorative swords in public, from the place of purchase to my home. He said he didn’t know of any specific law off the top of his head, but added that as long as I had them sheathed and wasn’t waving them around I was unlikely to get in any trouble. Though just to be safe, on one occasion when I bought a particularly large sword, I brought one of my empty bass guitar cases to the store with me and carried the sword home in that.

It all depends on your state. I work and live in New Jersey. There are restrictions on switchblades and certain other types of bladed weapons but there is nothing specifically stating what length blades can be. You just can’t carry one for unlawful purposes.

ETA some states do have length restrictions

[Saint_Cad]

I was stopped once in Washington and the officer saw my CCW. His hand instantly went to his gun and he asked if I had any weapons in the car. I answered truthfully, “No.” but his hand never left the butt of his gun during the stop.

[lawbuff]

@Shodan

On a related note, I thought that contraband found during a pat down could only be admitted as evidence if it might be a weapon, and was therefore OK for the officer to go into the pocket or whatever even without consent. Thus if you pat me down and feel a hard pointed object, you can pull it out without my consent and see that it is a syringe, and bust me for that. If you feel a packet full of powder, ask me what it is, I refuse to say, you cannot pull it out and charge me with possession of heroin because a packet of powder is not likely to be a weapon and therefore the officer would need probable cause for a search.

Regards,
Shodan

In Minnesota v. Dickerson, US SC, they ruled when an officer is conducting a Terry frisk and an object is felt that by thier training and experience is thought to be contraband, they can reach in and pull it out without a warrant. State Constitution’s of course may afford greater protection??

Another case, similar in import is, Rawlings v. Kentucky, the US SC ruled that if an officer has Probable Cause to arrest, he can conduct a full search of the person even before the words “you are under arrest” are uttered. The actual arrest must take place very soon afterwards, no delay.

[lawbuff]

@handsomeharry

My money says that if you decline to give a yes or no answer, the cop will frisk you if he feels like it, and, if it should go to court, he will tell the judge that you were being evasive, or suspicious, or combative, and you would end up having been searched legally.

hh

The 4th AM states, a search conducted without a warrant is “Presumptively UNreasonable”.

I have seen case law where the courts have ruled they are not in a position to second guess an officer’s feeling in the field, therefore grant wide latitude in such a frisk. However, a crooked cop can, as you note, make up anything.

[Una_Persson]

@Mister_Rik

As to swords and such, I have a small collection of “decorative” (though still somewhat sharp and pointy) swords. I started the collection during a stretch of time when I didn’t have a driver’s license and had to carry my purchases home on foot. I was talking to a city cop one day and brought up the subject, asking if there were any laws that would prevent me from openly carrying these decorative swords in public, from the place of purchase to my home. He said he didn’t know of any specific law off the top of his head, but added that as long as I had them sheathed and wasn’t waving them around I was unlikely to get in any trouble. Though just to be safe, on one occasion when I bought a particularly large sword, I brought one of my empty bass guitar cases to the store with me and carried the sword home in that.

As stated you should check your state laws; it shouldn’t be difficult to find. Thankfully my state doesn’t care about carrying swords of any length, so long as they’re not concealed. (I have a large collection of sharp and decidedly deadly swords, and I’ve been specifically trained to use them as a martial art, not fencing). That being said, I would never carry one just for the sake of, knowing that it’s a very poor officer who can’t find something to charge you with if he thinks you’re being an ass or making a spectacle of yourself.

[Jackmannii]

The main lesson Shodan should get from viewing COPS* is that he should never, ever drive through the bad part of town with his car windows down, or someone will throw drugs into his car and he’ll be arrested for possession, or possession with intent to sell (in the event the bad guys throw in drugs pre-packaged in glassine envelopes).

This happens to a lot of hapless arrestees on COPS.
*You have the first fifteen seasons on DVD? Good god. I hope that includes the famous prostitute sting episode. (“He touched me between my LAIGS!!!”)

**My entire lifestyle is shaped around many years of watching COPS on TV (and accompanying ads). I get all my meals at Speedway quik-marts, buy minimal car insurance at the cheapest rates, and have fabulous furniture and electronics from the rent-to-own places.

[Loach]

@Jackmannii

The main lesson Shodan should get from viewing COPS* is that he should never, ever drive through the bad part of town with his car windows down, or someone will throw drugs into his car and he’ll be arrested for possession, or possession with intent to sell (in the event the bad guys throw in drugs pre-packaged in glassine envelopes).

This happens to a lot of hapless arrestees on COPS.
*You have the first fifteen seasons on DVD? Good god. I hope that includes the famous prostitute sting episode. (“He touched me between my LAIGS!!!”)

**My entire lifestyle is shaped around many years of watching COPS on TV (and accompanying ads). I get all my meals at Speedway quik-marts, buy minimal car insurance at the cheapest rates, and have fabulous furniture and electronics from the rent-to-own places.

Do you also go shirtless while wearing long blue jeans?

[Chimera]

I can’t remember which show it was on. Was the woman who told the cop he didn’t have any right to speak to her “that way” and called 911 to report that he was being rude to her while refusing to cooperate in any way an episode of COPS or some other show?

[Archaic_Entity]

I kind of skimmed this, but I figured I have a couple things of interest to y’all on the matter.

First, IANAL nor an officer of the law, nor anything related to either profession… with that due diligence:

Check your state’s gun laws if at all pertinent to what you’re worried about. http://handgunlaw.us/ is a good website for each state and also offers some insight to knife laws as well. Many states are “must inform” states which means that you have to, upon official contact with officers, inform them that you are legally armed. As far as I can make out, from talking to officers, the best way to do this is to cite the legislation foremost and during the course inform that you are armed.
For example, if I were in Michigan and pulled over, I would hand the officer my license and any other necessary materials, as well as my CCW (or whatever your state calls it, mine is a LTCH), and state, “As per MCL 28.425f(3), I am required to inform you that i am currently carrying a legally owned firearm.” Avoid words that’ll set them on guard, such as “gun” or “armed” and, for God’s sake, do not say “gat” or “piece”. Conduct yourself professionally.
Some officers will be fine with that, and some may not be. You are, in most instances, not required to disarm, but most of the time will be “for officer safety.” Just follow officer instruction as completely as possible, and if you are ever requested to handle the weapon(s) in question repeat the command back loudly for verification. There has been at least one instance of a person removing their firearm from holster under instruction from the contacting officer only to get shot by the covering officer, so you want to make sure everyone knows you’re being told to do so. If you do not want to comply with the command to disarm, voice your objection but do not make any movements. You could say, “I do not consent to being disarmed, but I will not resist your attempt to do so.” Again, loudly, but politely. Hopefully the interaction is being recorded, and this could help if later legal action is taken. Hopefully, after being disarmed (or not), the rest of the transaction will go smoothly, and you can go about your business.

For states where you are not required to inform it gets a little trickier. If they ask you if you are armed, your best answer is a non-answer. I wouldn’t be so bold as to say, “No answer,” perhaps, but maybe, “There is nothing illegal on my person or in my vicinity.” The objective is to verify that whatever is in your possession is legal, and therefore any search is unnecessary. Of course, they’ll probably garner from the response that you most likely are armed. If so, just follow the instructions from above (if you like them… don’t if you don’t).

Also of note, you can also request that the officer obtain a warrant to search anything not on your person upon your removal from the car, as it is no longer within your personal reach. Some cops will just go willy-nilly searching you and anything you own, it is your duty to assert your rights as a citizen. If they crap on you, then that’s something you’ll have to consider for legal repercussions later. If you request a warrant or anything and they decide you are being less than submissive, just remember they’re the ones in control of the situation, and your best bet is to be a good witness and lawyer up after everything’s said and done.

All of that being said (I apologize for the long-windedness), my most important advise is just plain not to talk to cops. This is a good viewing, it’s about an hour long or so if I remember correctly, but worth the time if you’re worried about interactions with officers. - YouTube

Bear in mind, all of this advice applies to dealing with officers in official capacity, if they’re your drinking buds, and they know you personally… then assume whatever your personal relationship is with them. Maybe just ask them questions and figure out the nuances of their particular department, so that you could be better prepared for any official interactions with their colleagues.

[kopek]

@Airman_Doors_USAF

Some states issue CCW permits with the condition that you must tell the police officer that you have a weapon on you. For those states you should not wait to inform the officer that you have one, it is mandated that you do so immediately.

In all other cases it is strongly advised that you tell the officer that you do, in fact, have a weapon if he asks you. If you don’t answer or you lie and he finds one you’re in for a long night. Pennsylvania (my state) does not have a duty to inform, but unless you like handcuffs and a gun pointed at your head you would do well to answer the officer’s question honestly and promptly.

From experience and a small corner of the same state ---- what he says. My response, when asked, is “yes and the appropriate paperwork is in my wallet”. And I don’t move my hands while saying it or after until I am directed to. Saved myself a lot of hours and useless paperwork that way.

Also remember that your CCW may cross state lines to places that DO require disclosure. So best bet is just to fess up and not play lawyer on the roadside.

[Leo_Bloom]

This is related:
Possessing a small amount (I forget how much) of pot gets you a fine. Possessing the same amount “in public” gets you jail.

Apparently forever NYC cops, on a stop and frisk, would tell you to take out everything from your pocket. Have a little pot? Bango. Instant “public” arrest. Sneaky.

The policy has been made illegal–fat lot of good that will do–but here, at least, you can absolutely refuse to empty your pockets.

But do it nicely.

[Loach]

@Archaic_Entity

For example, if I were in Michigan and pulled over, I would hand the officer my license and any other necessary materials, as well as my CCW (or whatever your state calls it, mine is a LTCH), and state, *“As per MCL 28.425f(3), I am required to inform you that i am currently carrying a legally owned firearm.” *

You could say, “I do not consent to being disarmed, but I will not resist your attempt to do so.”

Of course there is nothing illegal about saying things like this but it would raise my hackles if I had them. Normal people don’t speak like this. A not normal person with a gun would make anyone nervous. You can convey the same message and still talk like a human. Would make me think of nutjobs who have political tracts on billboards in their front yards.

[QUOTE=kopek]
My response, when asked, is “yes and the appropriate paperwork is in my wallet”. And I don’t move my hands while saying it or after until I am directed to. Saved myself a lot of hours and useless paperwork that way.
[/QUOTE]

That sounds very normal and non-hackle raising.

[Archaic_Entity]

@Loach

Of course there is nothing illegal about saying things like this but it would raise my hackles if I had them. Normal people don’t speak like this. A not normal person with a gun would make anyone nervous. You can convey the same message and still talk like a human. Would make me think of nutjobs who have political tracts on billboards in their front yards.

That sounds very normal and non-hackle raising.

To each his own. The way I consider it, I am in an official, eh, I wouldn’t use the word confrontation, but it’s the only one that comes to mind, confrontation so I should do my best to behave accordingly, with clear legal language.

In my mind, anyone who is inclined to follow the law when approached on the subject, almost regardless the words they use, is more apt to have my trust than the guy who is silently lying to me. If he wanted to use a weapon on me, he wouldn’t tell me he had it in the first place (generally speaking).